Challies on educational methods
The enemies of God see clearly that education is a means to an end. It is not neutral. Throughout history, they have unabashedly used educational systems in their attempts to steal the hearts of the next generation.
When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side, I calmly say, ‘Your child belongs to us already…What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community…
…This new Reich will give its youth to no one, but will itself take youth and give to youth its own education and its own upbringing.”
Adolph Hitler
Tim Challies has posted a lengthy article graciously rebutting my own answer to why we homeschool. Although he broadly denied the applicability of Deuteronomy 6 and seems to doubt the godless foundations of the modern public school system, he said little of what he actually believed about either point.
I’ll be composing an answering post, but in the meantime don’t miss the lively discussion over there.
I have to confess that I’m at a bit of a loss as I try to understand how Mr. Challies and many other Christian parents can reconcile their opinion of the public school system with their choice to send little ones into it.
On the one hand, they openly admit that the system is indeed teaching children a different worldview, one that goes against what Christians strive to teach their children, a worldview that careful Christian parents must actively guard against and unteach their children.
They may even praise the particular school that their own children attend and the Christian teachers in the school. They assure us that this school is better than most. And some parents provide an extra layer of protection by volunteering at the school to keep an eye on what they are being taught so they will be aware of issues that need to be addressed from a better perspective.
I love comment #55 from Mr. Challies’s post:
The only Christian kids who I have seen maintain their witness are those who had parents agressively discussing with them, interacting with them, and who remained very involved in their childrens lives throughout their public schooling. In many cases, this would be much more work than placing your kid in a Christian school or homeschooling them. It’s like receiving little bits of venom, so you can build up an immunity. You are definitely protected against it but you could always just carry the antivenom with you and forgo all the painful steps of building that immunity.
Even if he and others deny the roots of the system, we do seem to agree on the nature of it today.
So tell me again, how can we say that we are doing our utmost to fulfill God’s charges to raise our children in the training and admonion of the Lord (Eph 6:4), train them up in the way they should go (Pr. 22:6), teach them His words (Deut 6:7), not cause them to stumble (Matt 18:6), and so on…how can we send them into that system and say we’re doing our best?
I ask this in all honesty: Knowing that the system as a whole works in opposition to a Christian worldview, how can a Christian parent believe, based upon Scripture, that public schools are an obedient option, let along The Best Way to train up their children?
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Filed under: homeschooling, iron sharpening iron, public schools
Dear Kim,
I have been following your recent posts on Christian Homeschooling and I must say that I agree with you on every point.
However there is one aspect which I see not being addressed. Some people have simply not got the option to homeschool. For us, we live in Germany, home of the Guy you quoted at the beginning of this post. In Germany, parents are being jailed and/or fined heavily for homeschooling or there are even cases of legal custody of the children being removed from the parents and awarded to the State.
The situation legally in the States is different (praise God), yet looking back over recent years let us say, behind the “Iron Curtain”, there were Christian parents raising up their children in Godly manners dispite communist schools.
What I am pointing at can also be tied into the Babylonian exhile. Those young men (were they men or children? I cannont remember) like Daniel, Shadrak, Mishak and Abednigo (hope I spelt that correctly) were *seperated* from thier parents and still kept strong in their faith.
These examples obviously in no way detract from your arguements, but actually re-inforce them, for those 4 young men in Babylon could not have kept the faith if their parents were not diligent in raising them up in the Word.
Perhaps there are even some christian parents in the United States who percieve themselves in a situation which would not allow them to homeschool?
As for me, I pray that the German system will change it’s laws and allow us to homeschool. Moreover, that God would grant us the strength as a family to grow together and in Him for the duration. Actually, I praise God for this opportunity to be so “active” in my children’s lives scholastically and foremost biblically. I also thank God for homeschoolers like yourselves and your readers who have been showing us the way and generating great Christian cirriculum which is so utterly different than the school system that it is readily taken up by my children.
May God bless you and your readers!
Andrea Schmitz
Kim, I’m going to speak frankly and tell you that I cannot, for the life of me, understand how opening this post with a quote from Adolph Hitler does anything to further the unity of the body of Christ.
While I do not doubt you have spent countless hours in prayer over how to raise your children, I doubt you’ve spent countless hours in prayer over how to raise MINE (I have)–so how can you speak with such authority about how I can raise mine? Scripture? Challies is right–Scripture addresses that we should raise them for a heart for their Father, but it DOES NOT say explicitly that we should homeschool. I feel very, very confident that we are being faithful to Scripture, even with our children in public schools.
“Expanding” Scripture verses that are vague to mean something specific is a very slippery, dangerous slope to go down.
I know this comment probably sounds angry–but I AM angry. And hurt. And weary to the bone of reading attacks like this from fellow believers.
Shannon,
It was put up to illustrate that the enemies of God see clearly that education is a means to an end. It is not neutral.
Unfortunately in our day and age it is the body of Christ who for the most part keeps insisting it IS neutral.
We recognize that there is some freedom in educational issues. My own brother attends a classical Christian school.
We are not attacking people directly any more than Mr. Challies was attacking my wife personally. We are, however, attacking the idea that it is not wise, prudent or acceptable for Christian parents who have been commissioned to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord to send thier children to institutions where their children are taught :
History is neutral and God is irrelevant to its interpretaion.
God is irrelevant to science (in fact belief in God is hostile to true scientific discovery)
There is neutrality in any area of human endeavor. There are no brute facts.
Humanism is right and true and the Christian religion is the superstition of dark minds from ages past.
We don’t presume to raise your children, Mr. Challies’s children or anyone else’s children, but when we see people claiming to be led by God to put their children into real and palatable spiritual danger then we are constrained to cry a warning like Eziekiel’s watchman on the wall. Eze 33:6
You and Tim are responsible before God for how your own households are administrated, yet we too are responsible for crying a loud warning when we believe that we see brothers and sisters headed straight for mortal or spiritual danger.
Pc3
I agreed with your first post about homeschool Q&A, but NOT this one! The Hitler quote is over the top for me and I am assuming many other christians… I even homeschool my children!
Kim, I understand that sometimes you need to use shock tactics to expose lies and snap people out of their stupor. Looks like Hitler quote might have done it!
You did well, and your points are TRUE and WELL DONE. You are absolutely right.
In countries where homeschooling is illegal– yes, that creates a snag? What can a parent do? If possible, emigrate to where you can serve God in freedom. I welcome people with OPEN arms who would come here.
For Americans, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not homeschooling. It boils down to mere convenience.
Keep making the point, Kim. You are right. I’ve read some of your kids’ blogs, and your girls are the sweetest little things I’ve ever met.
I have to say I agree with the poster of the Rocks In My Dryer blog.
Romans 14 :4 says this: “Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand , for God is able to make him stand.”
It is obvious that Kim’s family has the conviction that home school is the only way. Therefore for them to do otherwise would be sin. It is also obvious that many of us have different convictions on the matter. In the absense of any scripture that says “thou shalt do homeschool” or “though shalt NOT homeschool” each family should do what they believe the Bible and the Lord constrain them to do.
I believe that this discussion has gone past the point of edification and gone to unscriptural division. May I humbly suggest we all talk about something else?
Connie wrote this:
“In the absense of any scripture that says “thou shalt do homeschool” or “though shalt NOT homeschool” each family should do what they believe the Bible and the Lord constrain them to do.”
Connie,
I agree with you here. So how do you use the Bible to justify public schooling children?
Scripture doesn’t say “Thou shalt not snort cocaine” either. However, by applying scripture, like Eph 5:18, we can easily discern the Lord’s will on the matter.
Also, between “the Bible and the Lord”. What does this mean? Do they contradict?
Has anyone ever heard the phrase “You’ll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.” I am so sick of the “shock” tactics used to justify religious views. Do you really think anyone is going to change their views by convincing them that just because they don’t homeschool they are raising the next(take your pick) marxist, communist,natzi,etc. Not all punlic schools are raging liberal indoctornating camps. I would hate to think that I was a hurting child in your community because while you applaud those who have children in public schools for reaching out to these children, if you had your way, no professing good professing christian would ever have a child at these schools to reach out. My children are publicly schooled and I am proud of that. I don’t think this makes me less of a christian or means that I am failing to raise them in the fear and admintion of the Lord. People have given several examples from scripture of children from the Bible who were able to stand in the midst of public peer pressure. I agree that this is due to the fact that their parents taught them well as have I. I am not just throwing my children out into the world to fend for themselves. I have great confidence and pride in my children and the daily example that they are able to be. Moses was taken from his mother when he was weaned and we have no proof that he ever had any further contact with his mother but he remembered what she had taught him. I think that much more important than whether your child is home,christian or publicly schooled is that we instill values of right and wrong so they are able to stand no matter the venue for what they believe. How can we ever show the love of Christ if we are to busy trying to hide ourselves from the world. The great commission from Christ was to go into all the world and teach. I don’t believe that there is an age clarifier on that verse.
Let me tell you…I’m a little timid about saying that my way is the only way. I DO believe it’s the best way, or…well…I wouldn’t do it! But the last person I heard say that they would never, ever send their kids to school ended up signing both her boys up for the institution before 2 years was out! Humbling.
With all due respect, sometimes there’s a gentler way to say a thing. Surely our motivation is to be a blessing — an encouragement for Christ’s sake — not to be right, right, right!
Here is a post I wrote not too long ago that addresses the same subject without unnecessarily repelling anyone, I hope.
I can’t get the blog to accept my HTML for a nice, neat link, so here it goes the long way…
http://restoringtheyears.blogspot.com/2007/01/thursday-thirteen-freedoms.html
I can’t quote the scriptures but there is a few things I know. In every religion, there is different ways to show faith, from radical/traditional to liberal, with everything in between. Obviously, Kim C is more on the radical side. I am on the opposite side. I don’t really agree with what she said (her reason for homeschooling) HOWEVER, I see no reason why anyone should fight over this; she had some valid points. There is one golden rule and it applies to ALL christians, catholics or protestants. I am not exactly sure how it is said in the Bible, but is says that we have to love each other, and that it is this love for each other that makes us different, by which we shall be known.
We don’t need to agree to show love and respect. All christian books for women insist that wives shall show love to their husbands, no matter how mad at him they are, no matter how much they disagree. Same applies to all those around us.
If christians who are supposed to love each other keep fighting each other, how do you expect outsiders to respect you?
I apologize to those I will offend with this comment, but it is how I feel.
I attendend public school from grade Kindergarden until I graduated. I attended schools where I and my parents had friendships with many teachers and still spoke with them even after they no longer had children in there schools. I know that these teachers where my parents had friendship where chistian people. When I was in middle school, I faced alot of isolation because I stood out from everyone. I had teachers who taught evolution and I failed test after test because I would not right down the answers that teacher wanted me to put down as I knew they were not correct and did not follow scripture. There was nothing my parents or anyone could do to improve my grades because I wrote down the “wrong” answers. I had to accept a failing grade. High school did not improve this. I too had some christian teachers but being that I was going to a special high school (magnet school geared towards the health profession) it was worse in some ways. If you professed a belief in God or chose to belief that the Bible was truth than you were just steps away from being crazy because it didn’t fit with “science”. I wrote research papers were instead of A’s I would get C’s because I would call something wrong if according to scripture I believed it to be. In a setting that claims to be neutral it most certainly in not. Not only in science but in every single class. We could not study anything Biblical or bring any religion into the classroom is what teachers would say, but that is not true. It is truly you can not teach anything from a Judeo/Christian religion. You can not bring up Jesus or his followers, not the Bible, but we were required as part of our history class to learn to tennets of Islam as truth. I took many honors classes and even some AP classes and it always seemed to me that the higher the classes the more that they pushed an anti-God perspective. I have stong Christian parents. My daddy is an ordained minister and I have come from a family with many ministers, but by the time I was a senior in high school this enviroment had wore me down to the point that I didn’t care to study and learn. I did just enough to get by so I could get out of there. My GPA suffered much from the begining of high school to the end. I just wanted out of there. Thankfully my Daddy has always been a lover of learning and because of that example I couldn’t help but find myself desiring to learn again but this was out of high school. While homeschooling our 6 children is a scary thing for me. I could never put my children in a public school for them to go thru worse than I did. Homeschooling doesn’t come easy for me. My daddy did not support me at first but the more he saw of what was going on in the public schools the more supportive he has been and now throughly supports that idea. I have alot of family that does not support that idea but I can not with any kind of conscience put my children in such a system that is so obviously not a good enviroment for my children.
(posted on behalf of http://homeschoolblogger.com/AHappyHome
I don’t know what kind of parents you think are out there! I am very active in my childs life and schooling. Also, the teacher was not breaking the law by giving arguments to support creation, at least in our schools. The children here are encouraged to express their opinions and give arguments as to why they think the way they do! I think the key is to have open communication with your child no matter what your schooling choice. If training your child is not the point, what is? I think test scores are subjective to what you are looking for. It comes back to parents communicating their beliefs so that children can pass it on.
Yofed,
Your perspective is appreciated and I don’t think you offended anyone.
By the way, the case against public schooling is just as strong for non-Christians as well.
BTW, I highly recommend John Taylor Gatto for an insider’s persective on what the public schools were designed for. It’s not about education, it’s all about controlling the citizens.
Steve, I had originally posted this in the other homeschooling thread under the name “konolia”-(I have two google email accounts and was not intentionally posting under two identities):
Well, I’m a mom who did both.(All mine are grown now.) I’m a big fan of homeschooling, and not fond of public schools in general.
I do think there are some of us who God leads to enroll in public school. A lot depends on the area one lives in. Here in the South many of our schools are filled with Christian teachers and principals-that certainly helps.
For us, my husband came home from a retreat with the firm conviction that ours needed to go back in school when our oldest was in 9th grade. (we also had an 8th and 7th grader.) So at the very least I submitted to my husband as to the Lord.
I guess my main thought is that if God could tell Hosea to marry a prostitute, He could very well tell a Christian to utilize a public school for His glory. What matters is that Jesus IS our Lord, and that we obey Him. If our hearts are set on obedience to Him, and not to our own convenience, if we act in faith, and not fear, THAT is the issue.
Personally, I think homeschooling is superior education in the long run. For us personally, God had a plan for our oldest that required more than I was able to give him. (He is now at a service academy.) However in fairness I must point out that one of his roommates at that academy was homeschooled for ALL his prior education. So for you folks who are led to go the whole way at home, the sky is indeed the limit!
My two oldest, including the one I just mentioned, are strong Christians who stand strong against peer pressure. My youngest stumbled somewhat-but is now back in church. I can truthfully say that I think they’d have all followed the exact same path no matter how or where they were educated.
Let me add this-My son-the one at USAFA-is definitely standing strong for the Lord there despite many classes that reek of humanism. He had practice at that in high school. He is minoring in philosophy and you had better believe they have tried to undermine him in that field-but the Lord has givin him much grace. I love it when he calls me and tells me how he has been able to honor Christ in the papers he writes.
God had a higher plan and purpose for my son than I knew. It was my original intention to try to homeschool him the whole way but out of submission to my husband and to God a different path was taken. I believe in homeschooling, I would do it again in a heartbeat, but I would never say that God never leads a family down a different path. HE IS GOD. HE sees the end from the beginning, He knows what each child needs to fulfill the path He has chosen for them. God’s foolishness is wiser than our wisdom.
I’m tellin’ ya Kim…if I wasn’t way over here in S Korea we’d have us a nice sit down and enjoy some chocolate together. You are right on the mark.
I also like to think of it this way… If our local schools taught my children Christian values, respect, responsibility, accountability, restraint, humility, etc….If they taught history as it really was…If they taught the Bible and how to live by it…If they taught science and acknowledged God’s supreme design…If math were more about the number system instead of how we *feel* about the number 2…If they were flexible to the needs of my family…Then, it would be a no brainer. I’d send my kids to school, clean up the house, and go shopping
Well, probably not (I’d miss them too much), but it sure would be tempting, wouldn’t it?? But as long as schools teach even a small percentage of “stuff” that undermines our family and faith, well, then I am responsible to protect them and teach them according to God’s commands.
“Your teacher was breaking the law”
So were Paul and Silas. And Stephen. And Peter. Need I go on? Is it possible that there are still adults that will stand for what is right, regardless of the consequences?
“Not likely, especially if you read the above link. More likely is:
How was school today, honey?
Fine.
What did you learn?
Nuthin’.”
I feel that this may be a wee bit of an generalization. I know all of my youth group members’ parents are very much involved in their school happenings. Also, if you have a concern about what is being taught, why not call the teacher for yourself?
“True. But well trained children isn’t the point”
Then what is?
Also, I would like to know what everyone thinks the “proper” age for a Christian to come in contact with the world is. When is the magic age when we children are suddenly prepared for everyday life where we aren’t sheltered and spoonfed the answers. When are kids going to learn to fend for themselves. I would venture to say that not a whole lot of spiritual growth comes from contact with only people of your beliefs.
Rebecca…assuming yours was a legitimate question, and not simply rhetorical:
Well, Jesus wasn’t heard from (except for the brief moment in the temple speaking to the religious leaders) until He was 30!
Lord willing, we will continue to bring *our* homeschooled children’s paths across those of the world’s *with* our very strict supervision, guidance and counsel.
They aren’t birds after all; we needn’t be kicking them from the nest — fly or die!
I think what sits poorly with me in this post and in your reply to Rocks in my dryer is that you presume that homeschooling is ALWAYS right, for EVERYONE. As she so eloquently stated, she has spent hours and days praying over what to do for her children, and feels that God has called her to put her children into a public school. I wasn’t there, but I trust that she has worried about this and sought God’s guidance, and that he is leading her into doing this. He wouldn’t be leading her there if it were wrong. Can public school be bad? Certainly. Is it always bad? Definitely not. I went to a Christian school through 7th grade, and then moved to a public school. I got an EXCELLENT education. It would have been impossible for my parents to teach me all the college -level subjects I was able to learn. Were there “ungodly” things I was exposed to? Of course, but my parents teaching and the teaching I received at the Christian school I attended prepared me for dealing with these and being able to withstand temptation. What I enjoyed about Tim Challies’ post was that he was calling for less divisiveness over this issue. I respect your decision to home school, and understand that you feel God’s leading you in this direction. But when I have children, homeschooling most likely will not be an option for me. (I just graduated from medical school and will probably work at least part time.) So please respect my decision, which will be long prayed over and heart-felt, also following God’s leading, if I decide to educate my children differently, even if it is in a public school.
grafted branch
The brief time that Jesus was is the temple he was able to carry on an intelligent conversation and even astound the leaders of his time. At the age of 12 Jesus had a clear understanding of what his mission was. Who is saying to throw your children out of the nest. Before birds leave the nest to be on their own they spend time out trying their wings with their parents help and supervision. I believ e that the parents that choose to homeschool are offering the supervision to let their children try their wings while still having supervision. I can only speak from the stand point of my school and community but we have a very active parent involvement here. I know all the kids my daughter goes to school with as well as most of their parents. My daughter(the muffin) has been able to influence her friends and was elected to a place of leadership among her class. She has never shyed away from her beliefs and has been able to be strong example of what a Christian really is. In this day and age of phony and fraudulent “Christians” is not important to show people a true Christ like example? If you read her arguments from this and previous post you will see that far from being brained washed by secular theology she is able to present articulate and well thought out arguments. I think the point is just because you feel that God leads you to do something doesn’t mean that the Lord means that for everyone. God gives everyone diferent personal convictions specific to that person and their situations. They are called personal for taht reason. Why is it that just because a parent doesn’t homeschool that they can’t possibly of spent as much time in prayer over their children and they need someone to point out the errorof their ways. I pray for my children daily. We also pray before they go to school that God will be with them and place someone to help in their way. I still say that there is no age put on the great commission.
charity
Charity,
I don’t know what you think I said that necessitated such a pedantic answer?
When I said “we,” I meant my husband and I — far be it from me to tell you what to do.
And for the record, when I addressed your daughter, I incorrectly assumed I was addressing a mature adult. My apologies.
As an ex-member of the School of Education at the University of Oklahoma, I am sincerely wondering if many of the parents defending public schools really know what it’s all about.
I was taught (very openly) that the entire point of public school is to raise faithful, loyal American citizens who can perpetuate the State. We spent much more time discussing the “values” that we should teach them than the content of the curriculum.
Have you ever heard of Dewey? He is the “father” of public school. And I am sorry that some of you believe that the posting of the Adolf Hitler quote was just for “shock value” or was irrelevant - but it’s right on the money. Dewey wanted American citizens to look a certain way - he wanted them compliant, dim-witted, and bred to work instead of think. He knew how to accomplish this purpose - take the children and raise them the way the Government wants them raised. Thus Government schools were created. Read his writings - I’m not making this up.
So Hitler and Dewey had a lot in common. Just because it’s “normal” now to let the government indoctrinate children doesn’t mean it’s okay or safe.
In addition, though, it’s common sense that you can’t make the rule out of the exception. I think it’s wonderful that your child went through public school and made it just fine. I did too. All 12 years. But surviving doesn’t mean it’s the best.
When I decided to be an education major in college, I was forced to ask myself many questions: what is education? what are public schools really trying to accomplish? can the nature of public schools really be compatible with what God says the nature of education should be?
What I concluded, after being a part of that institution, is that God says He desires godly offspring. That’s all. If the entire point of education is to raise children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, then how is public school compatible with that? Their goal is the OPPOSITE of yours. If you looked at all the options, with God’s goal in mind, why would you pick public school as the best way to accomplish that?
Thanks, Kim, for being willing to make us think about these things.
I love homeschooling, I did it for 9 years. I was VERY adamant that it was the BEST way, and everyone should do it, and that public school was out to take your kids away from God. I HAD to have that belief in order to keep myself going!
But years later I had a very traumatic thing happen to me, and I could not continue to homeschool and give the kids my best, or to even heal emotionally.
God allowed me to put them in public school, and I KNOW that they are exactly where God wants them.
So, when people tell me that I am being lazy, or sending them off to some sort of Hitleresque camp, it is like telling me that I have to obey them and not God. Using scriptures to back up their view that I should follow THEIR views of God’s direction, rather than what God himself has told ME to do.
I am being obedient to God, and I have NO doubt about it.
I would rather have my kids at home, safe and never being exposed to lies and garbage from mainstream views and people, but God used the years to prepare us for this time. My kids are wanting more than ever to be missionaries! They WANT to serve! They witness to their friends in words and deeds. They keep Christian friends to sharpen their swords, and non-Christian friends to be the stone for.
YES, public schools have an agenda. YES, Homeschoolers have an agenda. It does NOT make one following God and one NOT following God.
If I were to take my kids out of school when God has put them there, do you think God would bless it, or make it go badly enough that I would choose to follow His plan?
I have walked out of God’s plan in the past, and I can assure you, God broke me until I chose to walk in His path. I don’t willingly, knowingly, step out of it again.
I’m daring to chime in on this wonderful and thoughtful post! First of all, great job, Kim! Well said!
I have a masters degree in elementary education and my oldest daughter attended public school through 2nd grade. We have homeschooled now for 10 years so I have a little experience in both areas. Of course, homeschooling is our first choice and what we believe is the biblical ideal for the education of our children.
Even though homeschooling is the ideal, we live in a fallen world and the ideal is not possible all the time. This applies to all things in life, not just education. For any number of good and understandable reasons, a family may not be able to or may not choose to homeschool.
We must also remember that everyone is in a different place in their spiritual walk and there may be many things that the Lord hasn’t dealt with them about. I know that for me everyday the Lord reveals Himself to me in a new way or deals with me in a new area of my life that He may have not brought to my attention before.
I say all of that to say that the dangers of public schooling are real and not to be taken lightly. Also, the manner of training of children as modeled in the Bible leads me to understand that homeschooling is the ideal model for the education and training of our children. But, in always striving to ‘live in peace with all men’, it serves us well to yield in deference to our brothers and sister in Christ who may not agree with us or who may not be able to make their first choice in this area for whatever reason.
So, referencing Kim’s post from today… pass the chocolate and let’s all sit out on the backporch, have a nice long visit, soak up some sunshine and have some iced tea! It is spring, after all!
You know, there is another option in addition to homeschooling and public school. What about Christian schools?
There has lately been some discussion on the blogs about homeschooling versus government schooling. I would like to add some perspective from one who has been there and done that.
Some musings about our home school by a grandpa who helped home educate our three daughters.
Our home school attained a 100% literacy rate.
No one in our home school was ever tempted by one of the other students to try smoking, drinking, or drugs.
None of our students ever tried to convince any of the other students that blue hair, nose rings, or tattoos were “cool”.
No one ever brought a gun or knife to school (except once when one of the students was buttering her toast while reading her lessons).
Our students never had to ponder the truth about contradictory ideas between teachers and parents. (Is evolution factual? Is homosexuality normal? Did God really have a hand in the way history unfolded?)
Even though I was concerned about our students missing the “socialization” of public schools, I decided not to beat them up in the bathroom and steal their lunch money.
Our students once learned the lessons that could only be learned at the funeral of a Christian lady who died after a courageous battle with cancer. The funeral was held during regular school hours, but they attended anyway.
Sometimes school happened at 10:00 at night or on Saturday if that’s when it best fit in with our lives.
Sometimes the students all slept in late if they were up way past midnight the night before helping a family friend who was in a crisis and needed help. The friend was more important than a schedule.
We purposely “sheltered” our children. They helped out at the local homeless shelter when their mother ran the shelter thrift store. They learned that it’s real people who struggle with homelessness, alcoholism, drug abuse, immorality, and divorce.
None of our students ever fell “head over heels” in love with an unbeliever. (Someone they were just sure they could change).
As a matter of fact, some of the best friends my children never had were unbelievers with opposite world views who didn’t attend our school.
A friend of mine once said this regarding putting a young Christian student in his impressionable formative years into the public schools: If you put a clean white glove into the mud, the mud doesn’t get glovy.
When it’s all said and done, the proof is in the pudding. The results are in. All of our former students excell in their writing skills, using proper grammar and spelling. They can balance a check book and run a household budget. They know who Marco Polo is and the temperatures at which water boils and freezes. They all turned into Godly young women whose husbands don’t seem to mind that they missed the prom. As it turns out, they were better able to handle the pressures and temptations of real life at age 19 than they were at age 9.
Most importantly, they all became wives and mothers who, with their husbands, are training up their own children in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
As it turns out in my experience, there are many, many more dangers of government schooling than the “dangers” of home schooling outlined by Tim Challies on his blog.
I brought my 2 school aged children home to homeschool about 2 yrs ago. We live in the bible-belt, in a prodominantly christian town (of about 6000), with a very good school that has mostly christian teachers. My kids were saved when they attended public school, and were very active in church, I taught the highschool Sunday school class at our church. My older child was very unhappy that I took her out of the public school. She had a difficult 4 mo, or so, missing all of her friends. After about a year and a half, she came to me amazed one day. (She’s almost 17)She said she really didn’t realize just how much she was exposed to everyday at school. She said she can now see, it took getting completely away from it to realize how desensitized she had become to everything. She had become very tolerant. It made her feel bad that alot of the things she was around, and even her “christian friends” were doing and saying and tolerating, weren’t shocking or offending her. She had gotten used to it. At her age she is now seeing some of her friends from really good christian families questioning there parents’ faith and becoming sympathetic to other religions (budhism, rastafarian,muslim,etc.) I’m not telling anyone how to raise there children, I just wanted to share my daughters experience with everyone. It is happening. Christian parents everyday are losing there children, if not in highschool, then in college. Yes, it’s possible to have a child grow up in the public school and be strong in there faith, but the statistics for that happening, are worth checking into. There is a reason christian organizations like Focus on the Family, etc., are asking people to pull there kids out of the public school.
When we moved to a new state we placed our 2 oldest children in public school. They had been homeschooled several years and then attended a very small wonderful Christian school where we lived before. I was very unimpressed with the education they received, and what was more, the sweetness and innocence we saw in their lives started changing as they were surrounded by children with worldly attitudes, and who were taught tolerance of everything in the world! Classmates in my daughters 5th grade class were allowed to watch rated R movies! Even though our daughters believe strongly in Christ and have very high morals, we did not want them around these children. The things they would overhear were not meant for young ears! We turn off movies or TV shows that are offensive to God, but how can you “turn off” the public schools? Maybe there are some out there that aren’t so bad, but we were told this was a great school system. Not for our children it isn’t! Yes, our kids could be witnesses, but at such a young age, they need protection and shelter. It is hard to teach them “Do not love the world or anything in the world” when we throw them into an environment that teaches or accepts the love of the things of this world!
Christian or not, one thing about public schools should worry ALL parents, but it doesnt seem to… A friend of mine has a daughter un junior kindergarten has a boyfriend. At first, I thought, ok, that’s cute and harmless enough… then my friend told me what that boy said… that he would do things to her I can’t even repeat. Things horny teenagers said in my days. And that’s JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN!!!
Back when I was in school, all schools in my area were catholic, so all kids were exposed to religion, or to moral teachings if they were not religious. Now, they took all religion away. At first, I was fine with it, since almost no one in the area goes to church anymore… I thought it would be replaced my something else… but no, they took everything that is remotely related to good manners out of the classes, and teachers are complaining that kids are more and more unruly, and they are not even allowed to really punish them.
Also, not only the quality of teaching went down drastically, but teachers can’t even fail their students anymore (well, in Quebec). I think they are allowed to do so every other year only…
I am not sure how it is in the rest of canada, but I heard that it is not much better elsewhere…
” At her age she is now seeing some of her friends from really good christian families questioning there parents’ faith and becoming sympathetic to other religions (budhism, rastafarian,muslim,etc.)…It is happening. Christian parents everyday are losing there children, if not in highschool, then in college.”
Carey, even in Christian schools, kids will eventually be exposed to non-Christian viewpoints, especially if the schools are doing their job and educating those kids about the world in which they live, and this is a GOOD THING. Eventually, all of us have to make a decision to live for Christ, or not. Sheltering kids from ALL exposure to non-Christian things, lest they come to question their parent’s faith, is one of the most effective ways I know of to prevent them from ever making a real decision to follow Christ for themselves, and until they do decide to follow Christ for themselves, they aren’t following Him at all.
No one EVER got saved because of their parent’s faith — rather, each of us must be saved, by grace through our own faith.
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
CJ,
There are many options for a Christian family educating their children - especially if they live in the context of the covenant community. There are tutorials, homeschool coops, Christian private schools, and a great number of combinations and variations of the above.
But the point isn’t to bash one thing to promote “my” thing. It’s to point out that we should not be asking the legalistic question “is it permissible?” when we think of education. We should be thinking “is it beneficial?”.
Well, yes, and that was my point. Public schools are certainly permissable, but seldom beneficial, and IMO the same may be said of homeschooling, when it’s entered into with the goal of preventing kids from ever being exposed to anything which might make them question their parent’s faith. That’s why I advocate Christian schools — the kids are not sheltered to the point of isolation, but nor are they left to fend for themselves in a secular environment without benefit of Christian guidance.
Kim,
I just came across your blog from Challies blog, and I found his arguments to be specious at best. We are homeschoolers expecting baby number 8 and the caricature of homeschoolers Challies describes was completely foreign to my experience. I addressed his blog post on my own blog, if you have the time I would be interested in hearing your comments…
grandpa, I liked your comment! And especially this quote:
“If you put a clean white glove into the mud, the mud doesn’t get glovy.”
Hear, hear!!
I am adding in my two-cents after reading all of this…the boards have been quiet for 24 hours so I might be getting people stirred up again, by opening up a new can of worms.
My husband and I agree that we are going to try homeschooling for a variety of religious/non-religious reasons. Our hope and our prayer is that the Lord will give me and teach me the patience to do this….as I tend to lack patience where some things are concerned. So if you feel compelled please begin to pray for myself and our family regarding this decision.
I see everyones standpoint and I can appreciate where each person lies. I have this to add: I rode a school bus from my second day of kindergarten (my parents took me my first) all the way up until my 9th grade year of school. I switched districts and in order to ride the bus in high school I had to walk three miles, which I refused to do so I made friends with the older kids in the neighborhood so they would bring me home (just sheer laziness). I had the most WONDERFUL bus driver in the world, she literally drove my older sister from her first day of kindergarten until she graduated and then she drove me as well. With that aside though even WAYYYYY back then there were issues on the bus. Not as bad at first but by the time I reached middle school it was very vulgar.
Sure I survived the last few years but I learned ONE to many things that no one should have. I had a different upbringing than my PK husband did, so maybe had I grown up in a STRONG Christian two parent home that lacked the things I endured I would have been a shining light to those kids rather than the meat in which they devoured in to their world.
In my world homeschool wasn’t an option, neither was being driven to school every day. I can say that my sincere prayer is that the Lord will help me learn patience. While we refuse to EVER put our child on a bus (considering now days they put a kindergartner with a 12th grader), because of the filth and trash they may learn on the bus, my preference would be for them to not learn it at school either. If they are learning that much filth and trash in a 30 minute ride, what will they hear/see/be exposed to once they get to school? For their sake I hope their mother is able to grow up!
Grandpa!
Well said! Your’s is one of the best responses here… pointed, yet humble.
On another note…I took this quote from one of the responses, not to single out this individual, but to make a point about many comments where the author discussed their method of decision-making.
The quote is:
“she has spent hours and days praying over what to do for her children, and FEELS that God has called her to put her children into a public school.” (emphasis added)
Is this really how Christians are to make life-decisions? By feelings? One can add prayer to the mix, but “feelings” are still not the answer.
So what is?
Bible…pure and simple. God gave us His word for a reason, and we need to use it. Is it more difficult and time-consuming than praying and then relying upon “feelings?” Sure. But God told us in His word what He wants of us. He has given us everything we need. We just need to take the time and effort to search it out…and then ACT ON IT! Will it be difficult? Sometimes. Will it be countercultural? Probably. Will it be easy? Maybe. Will it be God’s will? Absolutely. Ordering your life around the Word ensures you are in God’s will, for His will won’t contradict His revealed Word.
So in this debate about homeschool versus government school, it would be much better to see Scriptural arguments for the direction a particular family has taken. It seems the only time I see that is in regards to the homeschool side. I don’t recall seeing many who have chosen the government school using actual Scripture to back up their decision….
Charley
HomeDisciplingDad Blog
Get Serious Blog
Is this really how Christians are to make life-decisions? By feelings? One can add prayer to the mix, but “feelings” are still not the answer.
Sometimes God does give you a “feeling” over something. It can be a feeling of peace and calm. I don’t think that are decisions need or should be based on feelings alone. But God uses many things to guide and direct people including feelings.
Charity
Christians choosing public schools—may I be bold, but honest? I believe it has more to do with the fact that public school is FREE than anything else.
I’ve seen droves of my friends and church members, who are undoubtedly Christians, who choose the public schools. They use the “salt and light” argument but deep down, I think it has to do with the fact the schools are free (within reason, we all know about property taxes, fees, etc)
In the end, to homeschool it is very costly. One must (usually) give up an income and spend countless hours teaching their children. In our case, we live in a much smaller home than our church going counterparts, we drive old cars, and we go without luxurious vacations. Many choose not to homeschool or to use private Christian school because simply the cost is too great to them, and they are not willing to make the sacrifice to see it happen.
It may sound horrible but it is a pretty honest account if people would just speak the truth of it rather than throw around “salt and light” arguments over and over.
Hey Lindsey (and everyone else),
I appreciate your comment and no doubt that you have analysed your situation thuroughly. There are probably a lot of Christians out there choosing the public schools for financial reasons.
BUT, I would put up the arguement that those children who are in public school still need to be “homeschooled” in the Lord. If someone expects thier kid to be “salt and light” then they are hopefully training up that kid to be salty.
As I mentioned above (first comment), living here in Germany we have no legal option to homeschool, yet we still forgoe the second income, have only one car (and a multitude of bikes!) etc. so that I can stay at home and homeschool my kids. There is sooo much to teach them which is not part of the education system AND there is the de-programming which needs to happen sometime. I can not imagine doing all that after a day at the office or on the job somewhere else.
What would interest me is this: how do your counterparts ensure that their kids can be “salt and light”? Are they homeschooling in afterschool hours? (This is a serious question, one your counterparts might need to really think about if the are NOT homeschooling after school!)
Andrea
Lindsey
Christians choosing public schools—may I be bold, but honest? I believe it has more to do with the fact that public school is FREE than anything else.
What an arrogant statement. I don’t have a job outside the home, we make do on my husbands income and I still publicly school my children. Being home allows me to volunteer and be active in my daughter’s school. I still believe my daughter is there to make a difference. It only takes a match to light a dark room! Her friends all know she is a christian and are respectful of her beliefs. She has been able to help her friends thru some very troubled times.
as
What would interest me is this: how do your counterparts ensure that their kids can be “salt and light”? Are they homeschooling in afterschool hours? (This is a serious question, one your counterparts might need to really think about if the are NOT homeschooling after school!)
My children have been raised learning the Bible long before they got to school. They are active in Bible Quizzing which requires memorizing about 300 verses a year. We have devotions everyday as well as discussions on what is going on in their life. I have no problem with my children “questioning” what our beliefs are. When a question arises it is an excellent oppurtunity to show them where in the Bible the answer can be found. Because of this my daughter has been able to intelligently talk to her friends about her beliefs. In the process these beliefs have become real and are her own and not just what she has been told. Being “salt” is not something we have just left to chance.
Charity
Charity, sometimes the truth hurts. It may come across as arrogance but that isn’t my intention. The fact of the matter is, while you volunteer and live on one income and are involved in your childs school, most parents drop them off (if they even do that) for 7 hours a day and then they’re hauled off to day care or afterschool care for several hours more.
Kudos to you for having peace with your decision. I have complete peace with mine and in the end, that is what matters. I had absolutely no peace in turning my children over for 7 plus hours a day to someone else’s care and instruction in a God-less environment.
Lest you think I have no idea what public schools are all about, I taught in them for several years. I was a “good Christian teacher” who couldn’t talk about God with my students. I saw handicapped children made fun of by the teachers and administration. I saw parents snickered at behind closed doors. I saw tired teacher after tired teacher and knew that was not the way I wanted to raise my children.
Arrogance, maybe. I apologize that you felt hurt by my statement regarding the free use of public schools.
Lindsey
You may be speaking from your community and I can’t address that because I have no experience. All I have are my own experiences. The community in which we live is strongly conservative with the majority of parents being highly involved with the school process. Also, when children are having debates on issues they are able to address their religious beliefs. I think that there is a danger in lumping all schools together because while there are some bad schools out there there are also a few good ones. My husband and I have discussed and decided that given the current operation of are particular schools we have no problem with them but if things changed we would have no problem homeschooling either. Our choice was not based on finances or convenience but what we prayed and felt God would have us do at this time. I also worked in our schools and was very impressed by the dedication of the teachers.
Charity
Charity, I taught in Bible belt, southern “good” suburban schools, with many great Christian teachers. You would be surprised what goes on behind closed doors, even in private Christian schools.
I’m not going to argue the point with you that there are good teachers and schools out there. But there is no such thing as a public school which follows Deuteronomy 6. Period.
I choose to follow that commandment very closely and keep my children with me for their education.
Chaotic Mom~
Our hope and our prayer is that the Lord will give me and teach me the patience to do this….as I tend to lack patience where some things are concerned. So if you feel compelled please begin to pray for myself and our family regarding this decision.
You are not alone. If I had a nickel for everytime someone said to me “you must be so patient to homeschool.” It is a struggle for me as well. I would encourage you to read Homeschooling with a Meek and Quiet Spirit by Teri Maxwell…excellent book. And yes..prayer, lots of prayer.
God bless your family in this path.
Two things I just want to add:
#1. About the “feelings” arguement. Yes, God can give us “feelings” about certain things, as a way to communicate with us and to guide us. But He is NEVER going to go against His Word. So if you have a “feeling”, just check it with scripture. IMO, there is absolutely no backing of scripture to go along with sending our children to public schools. (IMO)
#2. How is it that every Christian parent I know (or have read of on-line) seems to sending their child(ren) to the *few* good public schools out there?? Every parent who sends their children to public school says it is a GOOD school, a conservative school, a moral school, where the parents are all involved and everyone knows everyone and it’s bliss, bliss, bliss….*ahhhhh*
Really??!
Do you all send your children to the one or two AMAZING public schools in the country?? Wow!
Back to the Bible: When asked the basis for this decision, it is usually homeschoolers who are quoting scripture, and many different scripture at that. YES, salt & light is important - but not at the expense of your child’s salvation! You can make a concerted effort to be S&L while homeschooling. But how can you follow Deut. 6, while INSISTING your children go out and be S&L? Alone? At such a tender age? It just seems backwards to me.
I will say that there may be instances when a family will have to choose the public school system. Extreme situations. Not the norm. If you have the ability, the opportunity, the resources, the mere chance to homeschool your children - as a Christian - I honestly don’t see how you could choose public schools??
Yes, these words will make some mad. That’s okay. I’m glad someone made me mad about 7 years ago. Praise the LORD!!
~Lori
Roberta,
Thanks for the encouragement and prayers!! I am going to Amazon.com to look for the book. I really do appreciate it!
Somehow I’m reminded of “The Screwtape Letters”…..because if there was a subject that seems to be dividing the Christian community more, I haven’t stumbled across it in any other blogs. The devil must surely be rejoicing at the absolute dissention and finger pointing.
For the record - I have no children so not a decision I have had to make or would presume to make for others.
Krista
Chaotic Mom~
Titus2.com is her website…you’ll get a better price there.
Hey Kim,
While I appreciate your comments and I can totally see your point of view, I think applying your personal convictions to every Christian is emphasizing legalism over Christian liberty.
My husband and I are Christians and we have four children, three of whom are growing in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and the fourth is well on her way. (She’s only two, so we’ll give her a little time.
We homeschool our children because we feel that this is what God has called us to do. We do believe our calling is based on scripture, but we also believe it is a personal calling. I can think of many good reasons that the Lord may have called us to it, but I’m hesitant to ever say why God does anything when He doesn’t explicitly tell us in Scripture. All I need to know is that God knows best, and He knows what He’s doing, and He’s called us to homeschool our children for this season.
However, on the flip side. My husband and I both came to Christ as a direct result of being in public school with Christian friends. In my case, a very close friend from a strong Christian family was the avenue God used to draw me to Himself. I still had many years of dysfunctional family life to endure, and I honestly don’t think I would’ve made it without having Christ in my life. My husband was actually sitting in his public school’s courtyard when two acquaintances gave him a tract. He became good friends with them, began going to church with them, and he asked Jesus to be his Lord and Savior. I pray that unbelievers in school will continue to be influenced for Christ by the believers that God has placed there. And, to be honest, because of my personal experience, I feel burdened that my children aren’t in public school to be salt and light for the children who are like my husband and I once were. However, the Lord has led us down this road for now, and so this is how we will go.
We have to remember that the Lord has been very clear about everything that He’s wanted to be clear about in Scripture. He made no mistake. If he’d wanted to say that we must all homeschool, He’d have said so explicitly. We mustn’t get so caught up in the law that we become pharisaical. We must remember that we are all different parts of one Body, and we’re all here to serve God in different ways. Just as the toe nails serve a very important purpose, they cannot be an eyelid and they’re called to a whole other place and purpose. We must also remember that there is freedom in Christ (Gal 5:1).
Our children are a work of the Spirit not of us or our homeschools. I became a work of the Spirit at the tender age of eight, though I was in public school and a very dysfunctional home. Praise God that He placed a Christian child in my public school!
A lot has happened since Deut. 6, including the Great Commission. I know parents who take their children through Bible study and prayer before school (when they rise up), on the way to and from school and other activities (when they walk along the road), at and after dinner, and at bedtime (when they sit at home and when they lie down.) So those public school parents are quite literally following Deut. 6, but their kids are still able to be salt and light in a dark world. The kids are covered in prayer, and the parents feel strongly that this is where God has them. They are in pairs as the Lord has provided strong Christian friends to help keep them strong in Him.
There are no certain New Testament examples of young people (with the possible exception of Timothy) sent out to be salt and light, however children are not specifically excused from it either. And as one of your readers pointed out, there are several Old Testament examples of God calling and using young people including Samuel, David, Daniel, Shedrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego.
I really have so much more to say, but let me just close with Titus 3:9, and Romans 14.
In His Grip,
Holly
Holly
Thank you for your well written piece. My husband went to public school all his life and is now an ordained minister and the Sunday School Director for our state. I am a product of public schooling also. My husband’s sister was a product of public schooling and is now an evangelist’s wife and has an awesome musical talent that she uses for the Lord. My sister is a product of public schooling and is a minister’s wife. Not all homeschooled children will continue in faith and not all public schooled children will lose theirs’. I think that there is a danger in making wide sweeping generalizations. The Bible states that each person must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. The thing that strikes me about some of these post is the lack of respect that is shown to those who don’t agree with the popular view. No one is sacrificing their childs salvation just by sending them to public school alone. If God has called a family to publicly school their child I believe that he is fully able to equip that family to handle what comes their way. Who can say what God has impressed or spoken to someone else. We must each give an account for our own lives and decisions made to the only one qualified to judge us. I think that it is incredibly arrogant to say with certainty what God has or has not spoken to another person. Just because children go to public school doesn’t mean that their parents are leaving them to fend for themselves or taking the easy way out. Thanks again for your well spoken piece. I am glad that their was someone to reach out to you with the love of Christ and I hope to one day hear that my daughter has made that kind of difference to someone she met.
Charity
I’ve been thinking a long time about whether to respond. I have been praying for the right words to give you as well.
I do see where you’re coming from, Kim. I oftentimes feel the same way myself. It is difficult b/c dh does not “see” things as I see them, and several of my children are still in public school. It is very difficult for me to send them out the door.
But then I need to remember that dh is a much younger Christian than I am. When I first became a Christian I had NO IDEA that Halloween was wrong. It simply hadn’t occurred to me. It took some patient explanation from an older Christian about why she didn’t do that in her house to plant that seed in me. I looked up those ideas for myself and reached the same conclusion. I’m sure though that if she were to express revulsion at my taking my child trick-or-treating I’d have had a different reaction though.
I also didn’t see the spiritual side of homeschooling until relatively recently. Please pray for those of us who still have children in the public schools. Your prayers and the support of new homeschoolers, I believe, will really change things. The passion for the cause is already there.
It is very, very difficult to submit to my husband on this issue to begin with, without the support and caring from fellow Christians.
Holly, your words were a great encouragement to me. Thank you.
Mrs. C
Mrs. C,
Thank you for your comment. Let me make something clear to you: I don’t flag down professing Christians and tell them that if their children are in public school they are in sin. As homeschoolers, we are nearly always on the receiving end of school inquisitions. So this discussion is usually in the context of “Why don’t you send your children to school? What’s wrong with public schools?”
We don’t stand in judgment and superiority over our Christian brothers (though they may feel that way because we sincerely believe we are right and they are wrong). Rather, we do our best to encourage public school proponents to think outside the box, to examine the issue and their own choices scripturally, and to realize that there are viable alternatives.
Our prayers are with you and other wives whose husbands don’t yet have a problem with public schools. God will bless your sweet obedience in the meantime and maybe your husband’s convictions will change as he grows. And, as with Joseph, Daniel, and his friends, be assured that God uses all things for good.
Thanks Kim! My obedience isn’t always sweet though LOL! PS. about the bag of chocolates… I think the BAG condensed making it look like the AIR expanded. They should be fine!
I agree whole heartedly that Christian parents are commanded by God not to send their kids to a humanistic government school.
Jeremiah 10:2a “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen”
Does it get more clear than that?
Here’s where I discussed the same topic on my blog back in April:
http://scrapsathome.blogspot.com/2007_04_19_archive.html
I don’t know how to link it, so you’ll have to copy and paste.
Jess
In one of these comments, someone criticized Kim C.’s post by saying that she was judging others by presenting such insurmountable barriers against lame excuses for relying on public schools to raise and “educate” Christians? children. The Romans passage was atrociously misused in this case. Are not you, who criticize, “judging” the author of this post? Furthermore, was Jesus sinning when he called the Pharisees (of all people) hypocrites and vipers? Was Paul ripping apart the “unity of the body of Christ” when he stiffly rebuked the Corinthian Christians for their lethargy and lack of Godly fear? Were the Old-Testament prophets not being “positive and encouraging” when they foretold of God’s judgment upon Israel?
Why is it that we Christians take cigarette-smoking as a sin for granted, but get all offended when someone presents GOD’S (not man’s) instructions as far as something as basic and yet as important as education? If we really loved God and wanted to be in unity as the body of Christ, then we would lay aside our own selfish prejudices, lay down our lives, and become more involved in the educational process. If iron is to sharpen iron, it is not always going to feel good at first.
BTW, if you consider yourself are a soldier in the “Culture War,” then I might add that taking away the power of the education of your children from the public school system is the best way to fight and win the war.
[...] A couple of clarifications on my earlier posts on education here and here: [...]