Quiverfull clarifications

My post about self-consciously letting God determine our family size stirred up some wonderful thought-provoking comments on both sides of the issue.

Let me clear up a couple of possible misunderstandings:

  • We don’t generally use the Quiverfull label because we feel that this way of life represents a clear Biblical pattern. We don’t think of ourselves as part of a movement; rather we are striving to apply God’s Word to every area of life, including childbearing. I used the label in my post for the same reason that I call myself a Calvinist: I am not a follower of John Calvin, but I do think that he did a good job of summarizing the teachings of Scripture in certain areas.
  • We fully understand that God does not give everyone a large family – even among those who never practice birth control. Although all of us are prone to judge a book by its cover, we have many friends who have small families through no choice of their own, and we strive to avoid jumping to conclusions about where people might stand on the issue. Ann’Re mentioned this in her comment, as did KMC, Hilary and others.
  • We have many friends who disagree with us on this issue. We have many friends who don’t know how we feel about it, and we don’t know where many of our friends stand. This is an issue that often stays between a couple and God, but there is still a right and a wrong answer, and every Christian must strive to apply God’s Word to this (and every) area of life.
  • Yesterday’s comments varied wildly in how they interpreted my post. Some called it kind, sweet, and thoughtful; others said it was merciless, harsh, prideful and judgmental. I tried to speak forthrightly, letting the gospel offend, but I am imperfect. If I was merciless, harsh, prideful or judgmental, please forgive me. If I am wrong, please forgive me; examine the Scriptures and obey them. But if the message offended you and you can’t condemn it from the Scriptures, then you have only 2 choices: obey God or your own will.
  • Caroline mentioned Amy’s chocolate ice cream post, where Amy explains why generalizations don’t always apply to every situation, but Caroline rightly assumes that my post is not meant to be a chocolate ice cream post. If you disagree with my stand on birth control, I think that you are wrong. That’s alright – I still consider you a Christian sister or brother, and you are probably convinced that I am wrong. I’m OK with that. Give your Biblical defense, and I will consider it Biblically. We each must serve God according to the best of our ability and conscience, and God will forgive each of us for our imperfect service to Him.
  • For those with medical conditions that make pregnancy dangerous, let me just reiterate what I said in the first post: If your doctor advised you not to have more children, I understand that yours was a hard decision – but it was a decision nonetheless. You had a choice and you made it. Not everyone obeys their doctor’s advice; not every doctor offers the same advice, and not everyone who goes against the advice of a doctor winds up regretting it. I’m not saying that you should have decided differently. Only that you did, indeed, have and make a choice.
  • We haven’t traveled an entirely smooth path – we lost a daughter to stillbirth, probably due to gestational diabetes. I conceived just a few weeks later and miscarried at 10 weeks. I have piriformis syndrome, which can be crippling in third trimester. We have gone through some dark and difficult times due to other sins in our lives – times in which we were sorely tempted to stop having children. We are unspeakably thankful that God blocked that path from us.

My intention was not to point fingers at those who disagree with us, but to encourage each of us to examine our decisions and convictions in light of Scripture rather than resting upon the standard lines of reasoning. Sometimes our own desires and fears can masquerade as convictions. We are all guilty of adopting the values of the society around us, but we are called to be different. We need to be ever mindful that we are held to God’s perfect and unchanging standard, and often that means conforming our own will to His.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12: 1-2

If you faint in the day of adversity,
Your strength is small. Proverbs 24:10

Comments

  1. Wow, for the seventy-seventh time (and I believe on behalf of everyone who has commented on this blog who has adopted this “QF lifestyle”), it is ALL ABOUT our heart attitude toward God’s blessing of children, not how MANY children. We are to trust in the LORD with all our hearts, and lean not on our own understanding. We are to graciously accept His gifts toward us, particularly those of eternal value (children), not try and avoid them. Aure, there can be an element of fear involved in anyhing we relinquish to God, but He’s got a perfect track record – He can be trusted with every aspect of our lives.

  2. Annie,
    I’ll start with your last question – I didn’t mean to suggest that our stillbirth and miscarriages were a result of sin. The difficult times I alluded to were entirely separate, and were direct consequences of sin in our lives at the time (in the same way that spending money foolishly leads to financial difficulty). I simply didn’t want to go into detail.
    Regarding the other questions, many readers have addressed them in the comments on this post and the first one about Being Quiverfull. My husband will also be posting soon about how we arrived at the position, so check back in.

  3. Where is the Biblical support for this quiverfull lifestyle? I know there are many verses that say children are a blessing and I am aware of the verse in Psalms that says blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. But I don’t know of anywhere in the Bible where it states that Christians are to have large families and that large families are the norm or that any form of birth control is wrong (now there are reasons why I can see that someone would find certain kinds of birth control wrong, especially when it comes to hormones and the pill which can act like an abortion, but what about mutually agreed abstinence?).

    I think it is wonderful that people feel called to this lifestyle, and I am hoping for more children, but so far that hasn’t happened for me despite trying for more. I do consider myself to be blessed even if our quiver only holds one child and we’ll be quite happy if that is the only child we ever have, although we do want more. But I do have a hard time understanding where the idea comes from that all Christians must live this way because I don’t see that in the Bible. Please share those verses with me.

    Also, I had a question about your last paragraph about your stillbirth and miscarriage. It almost seemed like you were saying that those losses were a result of sin? Is that what you believe? If so, do you believe that all stillbirths or miscarriages are a result of sin or just in some cases? But maybe I was just confused by the last paragraph and that is not what you meant at all.

  4. Hi Alex,

    What a blessing to have doctors who are supportive of women who have many children! I have not had a c-section, so I’m not exactly sure what that would be like (in terms of healing and such) but I can understand the concern with having children close together when you must have a c-section with each birth. I just want to encourage you to remember that the foundation of being quiverfull is the belief that God is in control of the womb- He opens and closes the womb at the right times. Whenever He sends a child you can be sure that is the best thing for your family. So, your doctor’s say that it would be best if your children are spaced 2 years apart…how do you know that they would not be if you chose not to use birth control? We have been conditioned to believe that if we have s*x and do not use birth control then we will be pregnant right away…this is simply untrue. If conceiving a child was purely a biological process then this would be true, but it is not just a biological process- it is a process that God sovereignly controls. Some couples who are quiverfull have many children close in age, others go through YEARS before having their first, some couples have 1 or 2 children although they never practice birth control and there were many opportunities to conceive more- this is all because God chooses what to give each family, only He knows what is best.

    God is the only one who knows what is best for your family. You may become pregnant 3 months after giving birth or you may not become pregnant for another 3 years…and not matter what happens you can know that He can be fully trusted. To me, that’s the beauty of being quiverfull, I don’t have to worry about trying to get pregnant, trying not to, spacing, etc., God controls all of that and I don’t have to carry this extra burden of trying to make all these decisions that really aren’t my own to make.

    Not matter what our personal situation God can always be trusted. You can trust God to do what is best for you/your body/your baby. You say that you can’t seem to rationalize using any form of birth control, I don’t see any reason to either. Your life is in God’s hands and He will always do what is best for you. You have great Christian doctors, but they look at things from a purely medical point of view, that’s their job. Medical technology can be a great thing, I am certainly grateful for it, but I think we can run into problems in some areas when we begin to trust in doctors (or people in general) more than we trust in God. We are to make wise decisions, but what is more wise than trusting in God? We only have human wisdom, but God’s wisdom goes beyond anything that we can imagine. It is never wrong to place your trust in God and I encourage you to stick to what you know about God and His control of Your womb. I just cannot say it enough that you can trust God to always do what is best for you.

    oh sheesh…I seem to always end up writing a book! I hope this was encouraging to you.

    Amy

  5. I enjoyed reading your post, and agree completely with what you said. That being said, I am at a point where my understanding of the quiverfull mentality, and of God’s will for me, is unclear.

    I have four children and have gone through 3 different obstetricians because I have a desire to find a doctor who I can trust when I am faced with tough decisions. My current doctors are Christians, and are in-line with the quiverfull mentality, that’s why I am sticking with them.

    I guess the reason I’m posting is to get your opinion. I had a c-section with my first child and two vbacs with my second and third followed by another c-section with my last child. Because of having had 2 c-sections, I now must have c-sections for the rest of my deliveries. Thankfully my doctors encouraged me by saying that the number of children I could have would not be limited by the number of c-sections. They gave me the example of a patient they have at their practice who has had 9 c-sections!

    The problem for me comes in the idea that I should wait 15 months before getting pregnant again. My doctors said that ideally, for safety reasons, my deliveries should be no closer than 2 years apart. They also said they would support me even if my deliveries were closer together, but that it would be safest for me and the baby to let my body/scar heal.

    What would you do? I guess I see my doctor’s advice and technology as gifts from God. We are supposed to be wise in our decisions and use the resources that God has given us. But I also can’t seem to rationalize using any form of birth control. I’m torn. Sorry for rambling.

  6. I once heard a great quote about explanations. It went something like this:
    “Never explain anything. Your friends don’t expect it of you…and your enemies won’t believe you, anyway!”

    Still, explanations do open lively discussions!

  7. Kim’s first post upset me greatly, and I knew at the time my comment was not even rational – I just wanted to let out some of the emotion that was brought up in me. After a few days of thinking about it and pondering why I would have such a reaction, I conclude we are in a sin-stained world, and birth control, like most modern technology, is something man has invented to bless himself with an easier and more prosperous life, not realizing it is a curse. Many of you are blessed in being out from that curse and going against our culture. It is marvelous. Many, like me, are in other situations. God is still good and one day we who are in Christ will be free from this world.

  8. I think that having your uterus removed because of cancer is not choosing not to have children, but as I statedin another comment. You love all your body parts, but if one of them is for certain going to kill you remove it. We would not judge someone who removed a gangrenous hand, but removing a uterus is sin? Both are very difficult to live without. I do not think there is any biblical backing for this belief.

    Now, having many children and not using birth control yes, but not when it comes down to condemning yourself for removing your uterus in a life saving measure.
    What about Terri Camp (I think her name was) who had severe placenta previa, but did not know it until in labor. The removal of her uterus saved her life and they were able to save the baby by a miracle as he “should” have drowned in the amount of blood.

  9. Hi Laura,

    ““Having children is not some sort of illness that needs to be treated.”

    Well, yes and no. Some women are blessed to have easy pregnancies…some have a harder time but do just fine…and some have a very, very tough time of it.”

    Yes, I understand that some women have very difficult pregnancies…I guess what I should have said is – the ability to bear children is not some sort of illness that needs to be treated (in comparing it to receiving treatment for other illnesses one might have).

    “Even so, I would have liked to have had more children but my husband felt it wouldn’t be wise to continue when we were already so blessed, and I deferred to his wishes, grateful that I had four.”
    You are very wise to be obedient to your husband in this matter, or any matter 🙂 Even if a wife is of a quiverfull mindset or wants to have more children she must always submit to her husband, that is not wrong at all!

    Thank you for reading my comments to you and replying graciously even though we may disagree 🙂

    Amy

  10. Melissa,

    There is a difference between having your uterus removed because of cancer and choosing not to have children because you have, say, diabetes and a doctor told you that you shouldn’t get pregnant or whatever. If you have cancer then by all means you should do whatever you can to get rid of it, there is nothing wrong with what your mother did- she received necessary medical treatment for a disease. Because of receiving the necessary medical treatment, she lost her ability to bear children and that is sad, but she did what she had to do to treat her disease. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that people who receive chemo may become infertile as well or there are probably other treatments for certain diseases that leave a woman infertile. Does this mean that they should not receive treatment? Of course not. The treatment is necesarry to treat their disease. This is different from someone using birth control because infertility was caused by the treatment, it was not the purpose of the treatment. Does that make sense?

    Becoming infertile because of receiving necessary medical treatment is different than choosing to prevent children and rendering yourself “infertile” in a sense. I guess what I am trying to saying is that I do see this as different from using birth control. Really the quiverfull mindset is about a heart attitude and not “how many children you can have”. Someone who needs a hysterectomy for cancer, like you mother, could still be considered quiverfull (well at least I believe so) because of an attitude of “God I will joyfully receive any children you give me in Your timing” even though they would be unable to have any more biological children (God may want to give children through another avenue). Someone who is using birth control does not have the attitude of “God I will joyfully receive any children you give me in Your timing”…or if that is their heart attitude then it makes absolutely no sense to be using the birth control.

    Amy

  11. Just a note to say thank you for the thoughtful comments. I don’t agree with them all, but I appreciate the insights and points of view shared in this discussion.

    Incidentally, I certainly do agree about the need to question doctors; I have done so myself on multiple occasions. That said, I also believe, as someone else said, that often they are fulfilling a God-given calling and can be a real blessing in our lives. And there are times when doctors’ advice simply makes sense to a layperson in the context of a situation, just as other times we are called to question a doctor, go against doctor’s orders, or obtain other opinions.

    I’ve also been through comments by others about having more children than the “norm” — I was reduced to tears when I was pregnant with my third as I was so happy and couldn’t believe the rude things said by people I *knew*, let alone strangers. Happily when I was pregnant with my fourth people no longer bothered to comment.

    Regarding women having life-threatening health issues being a “rare” thing — one of the reasons this discussion struck me so forcefully is that two of my closest friends, who had a “quiverfull” mindset perhaps before it was a widely known term (the ’80s), were led to stop having children after having four children in one case and five in the other. The first woman had two life-threatening miscarriages and after the second one (came close to hemorrhaging to death) felt that God was showing her she was not meant to continue having children. For her the stewardship issue was part of her decision. The second woman had to have major internal “repair” surgery due to damage from childbirth — I won’t go into the gory details, but if she were to have further children and rupture those areas again she would be vulnerable to life-threatening infection (she would have to have a c-section). With children ranging from college age to infant, she too felt she was being shown it was time to stop. Both of these women had not previously used birth control as they were open to God deciding their family size. Perhaps it’s just chance that I know these anecdotal situations, but I suspect these kinds of issues may come up more often than people realize.

    “Having children is not some sort of illness that needs to be treated.”

    Well, yes and no. Some women are blessed to have easy pregnancies…some have a harder time but do just fine…and some have a very, very tough time of it. I did not personally face life-threatening situations, as my friends did, but among other things we’re talking having to be on heavy-duty anti-nausea medications, with one foot in the hospital door, being sick and unable to do much in the way of parenting my other children for weeks on end. A c-section and having had multiple VBACs also figured into the equation. Even so, I would have liked to have had more children but my husband felt it wouldn’t be wise to continue when we were already so blessed, and I deferred to his wishes, grateful that I had four.

    So…yes, it is a choice, and I admit to being perplexed as there seems to be a belief held by some that such a prayerfully reached choice might be in contradiction of the Bible. However, I entered this discussion in search of the other point of view, not to debate, so I’ll leave it at that. 🙂 I appreciate those willing to share their thoughts on this topic.

    I think that the most important thing is that what we share as Christians is much more important than different mindsets about an issue such as this.

    Best wishes,
    Laura

  12. Robin,

    I completely agree that God won’t contradict his word, my point is simply that God can speak to a person directly.

    In a way, having a hysterectomy is the same as using BC because you are artificially “closing” your womb. We could say that the circumstances are different, that having cancer is more obvious sign from God than say, having heart problems or diabetes. However, I don’t think you can make exceptions. Many of the women here have stated that they have serious health problems, yet they were brushed aside as not having enough faith. Perhaps it is their faith that has led them to make a difficult decision. All I’m saying is, we can’t intimately know someone’s heart and we can’t know how/if God has led them to make that decision.

    We can each personally say, “God has led me to lead a Quiverfull life and he has blessed me with the ability.” We can’t say, “You have chosen not to live this life because of your choices” (because we don’t know what led them to make those choices). Like I said before, it is not our place to be the judge, that role is God’s alone.

    I do appreciate this discussion though, as it has helped me think about these issues in a different light.

  13. Kim, I love your blog. I have been reading for a long-time, but have never commented (til now).

    Melissa, you said “there are also statements suggesting that God won’t speak to a person’s heart
    directly regarding childbirth, but only through the Bible…”

    God, when speaking to our hearts, be it on childbirth or any other topic, will never contradict His Word. His Word is the standard that we measure by. If we feel that God is speaking to our hearts, and then we go to the Scripture and see the opposite written there, we can be sure that it was not God speaking.

    Also, I am “quiverfull” through and through, but if I found out tomorrow that my uterus was full of cancer and without a hysterectomy I would die, I would choose to have the hysterectomy (well, after prayer, of course). Having a uterus full of cancer removed is not the same thing as preventing a pregnancy by using BC. That would obviously be God’s way of closing my womb. Just my opinion.

  14. It seems like most of the comments regarding the medical concerns state that any tampering with the womb is against God’s word (there are also statements suggesting that God won’t speak to a person’s heart directly regarding childbirth, but only through the Bible, which I heartedly disagree with).

    Anyway, take this example. When my mother was 35, still within childbearing years, she was diagnosed with wide-spread uterine cancer. It was too late for chemo or any other option, so she had to have a hysterectomy, which obviously put her into early menopause. Did she go against God’s word by saving her own life? It was a choice she made, but without this choice she would have left three children without a mother and she wouldn’t have lived long enough to conceive another child (if that’s the point). Would you say to her that this choice was a sin? Can you say that you would do differently?

    I think living with a Quiverfull mindset is a wonderful way to live your faith, but I also think that as Christians we need to stick with being examples rather than judges. You’ll find that when you start pointing fingers, people become defensive, not receptive, and change will never be reached.

  15. Sheila,
    I think you are right – the reasoning is often identical. This was one realization that brought us toward the quiverfull position years ago.

  16. KimC is correct. MOST Christians don’t practice prevention because of rare medical conditions. Most people either in fact. This author unfortunately has it right.

    http://www.reason.com/news/show/125163.html

    When hubby and I were ‘outed’ with my 3rd pregnancy my mother’s (my own mother!) FIRST words were ‘Oh NO, NOW you’ll NEVER *have* ANYthing!’ Simply by having 3 kids instead of the customary 2 and done. Her father was a deacon in a strict baptist church too. She’s just mad we won’t be able to afford ‘stuff’ that we can show off to everyone else and she can vicariously brag about. Not to mention that my working with 3 under 2.5 is almost impossible from a logistic standpoint even if I were to consider it. Who can afford daycare for 3 at once ? LOL. How much money would I have to be making to pay JUST for daycare?!

    Stuff > Kids

    Unfortunately the viewpoint of MOST Christians who practice b/c.

    Psalm 113:9 has particularly sweet meaning to me. We WERE barren the first years we were married. I was an undiagnosed type II diabetic (I’m not fat either, it happens to skinny people too!). We were really tired of ‘trying so hard’ to get pregnant so we prayed ‘God, however many kids you want us to have…’. I was 38 and fully expected the answer to be ‘none’. Which would have been OK too. I started studying for the LSAT. Shortly after that we FINALLY Found out our troubles, I adjusted my diet (drastically!) and now we have 3 under 2.5. BTW. I’m also VERY old for kids this close. I’ll be 42 my next birthday. No fertility treatments for us. (Who can afford fertility treatments with all these kids?! LOL)

    I copped kidney failure postpartum my 3rd baby. Got readmitted to the hospital and my OB really tried the hardsell of getting fixed. At 41+. I asked her what the odds were of spontaneous conception/delivery of a 41yr old were w/o fertility treatments.. Not great she replied. Then if it happens then maybe God has a plan, right ? I replied…

    Now back to my 30m old my 16m old and my 3m old. Wheeee…

  17. I didn’t mean to equate abortion and birth control, but just say that often the reasoning behind each is the same.

  18. kimc’s most recent comment reminds me again how many abortion proponents call pro-lifers insensitive (at best) because some women must have them if their lives are at stake. SO RARE!!!!!! So rare, but that’s the card played, because no prolific person wants another person to die.
    Not to say, by any means, that those who surgically end their fertility are doing so wrongly, but these situations are indeed the exceptions to the rule. (I hurt for them, particularly someone like Rebecca.) I guess that said, we need to take care that we keep God on the throne in every area of our lives and seek His word for our counsel first and foremost.
    I have yet to personally meet any fellow Christian who put an end to her fertility because her life would be at stake with another pregnancy (again, a medical opinion). Most of the time, it’s the usual: finances, sanity (perceived) :), personal preference, etc. I chuckle when I think about the illustration the Hesses use in their infamous book – Hannah (of the book of Samuel) is asked by her husband, when she was mourning her lack of fertility, “Am I not better to you than ten sons?” To which most of today’s society would answer, “ANYthing’s better than ten sons!”
    BTW, I’m 37, with only 🙂 five children. I’d love to have a dozen, but only God knows what He wants for my family. No, I don’t believe anyone need mourn the children they/we could’ve had, but I’d hate to try and prevent someone who could someday be the one who finds a cure for cancer, or becomes an outstanding evangelist, or a mom or dad to many precious children – you get the picture! My life is in His hands.

  19. Thank you Kim for your gracious answer.
    I feel like I maybe wasn’t clear. I’m working with a flu-fog brain.
    If I HADN’T been told by 3 different doctors, from 3 different pracitces (one of them, my original doctor who has 5 children of her own), then I NEVER in a MILLION years would have made the decision not to have any more biological children. I’m not the norm or the rule, so I guess I feel a little more sensitive to the women who are told they shouldn’t have any more kids.

    Our decision was one bathed in prayer. With much pastoral counsel. A decision that my husband and I weep about still. I guess without kowing others’ circumstances or hearts, it’s VERY hard for me to say that they are making excuse abut why they are not just trusting the Lord to give them as many children as other people have.
    Anyway, God bless.

  20. Hi Laura,

    You have raised some great questions:

    “For instance, evangelical Christians do not subscribe to the Christian Scientist view preferring prayer to medical care. Should the area of fertility be an exception, with reliance on prayer and God alone?”
    Yes, we do sometimes receive medical treatment for problems that we have, when something is wrong with our body. For example, I have type 1 diabetes, so of course I need to use insulin to control my blood sugar because my body does not produce it. But there is a huge difference between using medication or what have you to help when there is something WRONG with your body and using birth control to prevent pregnancy. If something is wrong, by all means do what you can to help solve the problem and fix it, but having children is what a woman’s body is made to do. Hmm…I find myself grasping for different words…I hope you can understand this. Like someone else has already mentioned, being quiverfull isn’t about having lots of kids…it’s about a lifesyle of trust in the Lord. God is the one who opens and closes the womb in His timing (which is always best) so it doesn’t make much sense to try and control this area on our own, as if we know better than He does. This is different than receiving medical treatment for illnesses or diseases. Having children is not some sort of illness that needs to be treated.

    “I also wonder about stewardship of the blessings we have — for instance, if parents are blessed with several children and the wife has very difficult pregnancies (you can probably guess from this that my pregnancies have been fairly tough), does her responsibilty to be a good steward of the blessings she already has received from God come into the equation at all (i.e., not risking her life and robbing her children of their mother, if that is a reasonable possibility)? ”
    The question of stewardship is something that I used to think a lot about too. God is very clear that we are to be good stewards of what He has given us. But if you study the many Bible passages that talk about stewardship you will see that the steward is not the one who chooses what he will be a steward of, the Master chooses what to give the steward and then the steward takes care of what he has been given by the Master. Do you see how this works into being quiverfull? We are only the stewards and do not have the authority to choose how many children we will be a good steward of- only the Master (God) has that authority, He chooses what to give us and then we take care of it. In trying to choose what we want to be a steward of (this many children and no more…) we are usurping God’s authority and attempting to become the Master, but that is not our place. God gives, we receive. We do not choose what we are given, or that we have been given enough and wish to receive no more (though God may wish to give us more).

    It is very good that you want to be a good steward of what God has given you (if only more Christians would take that seriously!), and it may seem like if you were given more children you wouldn’t be able to handle them or “be a good steward” of them. But the good news is that God always equips us to do what He calls us to do. If you surrender control of your fertility to Him, trusting that He will do what is best for your family, and He gives you more children (though He may not) then you can be absolutely sure that He will enable you, through His strength, to take care of all of the children He blesses you with. As Christians, we never are expected to do things on our own, and a lot of times when we look at something and think that we could never do that, it’s because we are imagining doing it in our own power (this happens to me frequently!). Praise the Lord we don’t have to do ANYTHING in our own strength. God is willing and able to give us His strength and sustain us in everything He brings into our life.

    God always blesses obedience.

    “As I’ve read the posts and comments, I’ve been wondering — God is so powerful, is it possible that He speaks to us on the issue of fertility outside the literal opening and closing of the womb?”
    You’re right- God is SO powerful! If God has made something clear in His word, then what would be the point of speaking to us outside of that? He would only confirm what His word has already said- God will never lead you to do something that contradicts His word.

    “For instance, if one has prayed for guidance and consulted doctors, might His will be communicated in another way other than simply waiting to see if He literally closes the womb? Or are we to only leave this area to God’s will, come what may?”
    Like I mentioned before, if something is already clear in God’s word, there really isn’t a reason to seek out other guidance. That would be like praying and asking God if you should share the gospel with others, or seeking counsel about such a thing. If God’s word is clear about something, then you aren’t going to find clearer or different guidance from Him anywhere else. God can be fully trusted to do what is best for your family, including in the area of when He gives you children. When some people hear about the idea of not using birth control they automatically think that you will have 15 kids, and I suppose you would if conceiving children was a purely biological thing, but we know that its not- God controls it. The average number of children that families who don’t use birth contrl have is 5- not 15! God gives to each family the number of children than He knows is best for them. Only He knows the beginning from the end and only He knows what is best for your family- what could be the danger in leaving something in God’s capable hands?

    Amy

  21. Rebecca and Laura,
    I think others have done a good job of answering your questions about following doctors’ advice, but I’ll add my own two cents’ worth.
    Doctors are generally biased against large families and often wrong. Many will tell you that it’s dangerous for a woman to have more than 4 children, even naturally. They will tell you that it’s dangerous, foolhardy and selfish to decline vaccinations for your children, that contraceptives never cause abortion (I had a doctor staunchly maintain this to my face, even when I showed him the statement to the contrary on the product info I had just picked up in his own office!).
    There is a new story in the news every day of the week about the horrible mistake that parents would have made if they had followed doctors’ advice.
    They are human like us, subject to their own assumptions and presuppositions, and are often wrong like we are.
    Sometimes they are right; but let’s not start from the position that their opinions are authoritative.
    Let’s start with our duty before God, and work from that direction. We *might* find ourselves making different decisions that those around us expect.
    Let’s also avoid reasoning from the difficult cases, trying to create rules from exceptions. This is poor logic and leads to poor decisions and incorrect conclusions. How many of us have been told by multiple doctors that we and our future children face near-certain death? Certainly some, but this is not the norm. Birth control is considered to be the norm even among Christians, and it’s not because of rare medical conditions.

  22. Sarah,
    You asked if fertility treatments are unbiblical. I think you are making an invalid comparison: contraception effectively “breaks” a system that is working properly. Fertility treatments seek to fix a system that is broken.
    I think certain methods are wrong because they treat embryos (babies!) as inhuman and create and destroy them. Other methods, in my opinion, are forms of taking dominion just like other areas of medicine.
    But contraception is not medicine. It disables a perfectly good reproductive system. It violates the oath taken by doctors, to “do no harm.”

  23. Amy,
    I think you make a great point! Many people are uncomfortable being held to God’s standard and they feel that they are being judged by other Christians when we say, “Wait – what does God say about it?”
    And I like your idea about reading the Bible as well. God doesn’t give any explicit commands against contraception, but there is (we think) a clear pattern that we can see as we read His word. Barrenness is a curse; children are a blessing from God’s hand, even to the poor and to nations in captivity. We are God’s children; He or the church would never turn away new believers because they lack the resources or funds or the timing just isn’t right.

  24. What Ashley said. 🙂
    Yes, there is a true choice. Some choose one way, some the other. We cannot judge hearts but we can explain what would prompt us to make choices that go against doctors orders.

  25. I have held off joining this particular blog ring for a few months because I don’t like being labeled (but finally joined). And many of my concerns about such have indeed cropped up here. 🙂

    Quiverfull isn’t an “ideal” or a particular “life style”. It is about walking by faith in all areas of life, including reproduction.

    For us, trusting God in this area made everything else domino. We now actually have to trust Him to provide, and trust Him timing of events, etc. It feels like a vulnerable position, humanly speaking. But my spirit is most definatly at peace. 🙂

    This is about looking to God first, man second. It isn’t saying “God, You want me to have a baby (or 5, or 12), but guess what? I just found out it’s medically impossible!” It isn’t about if I want 6 children (God might give me only two.) or if I want one (I might have six) it’s about trusting Him to know what is best for me.
    It is about letting go of our precocieved ideas and notions.

    Of course I do realize that if you do not believe in God’s provision or that He opens and closes the womb then this makes little sense.

    I am just at the beginning of my adult, married life. I *know* that some people honestly believe they will die if they have another baby. I do not judge them for that – that is between these family and God.

    In my own life, personally speaking, my goal is to walk by faith and obedience (I’m not saying that you don’t!) . . . and that does not necessarily mean a long life as I see it. I would rather be obedient and with my Lord earlier than I had planned than alive. This life is wonderful and all that, but frankly, eternity in the presence of my Savior is going to be so much better. While I am thankful for every day God gives me with my wonderful husband and precious boys, to try to cling to this broken, ugly life to me is laughable. I’m a stranger here, I’m in transit, and I feel it acutely at times. 🙂

    That is not me taking rash risks for fear of ANY kind of label ANYONE could put on me. That is me taking what appears to human eyes as foolishness in what I believe in my heart to be obedience.

    If I were to be diagnosed with cancer and be pregnant, I would die rather than to have an abortion and live, so that my baby could have every chance at life. I believe very strongly that my life is a relative vapor, be it 30 years or 101 years long, and I do not fear death. I have no fear for my family – because God is so mighty that He will be with them no matter what happens to me. The choice I would make if I was 6 weeks pregnant is simply the same choice I make before pregnancy. I simply choose to be an open vessel.

    Medical opinion is just that. Opinion. God can heal, or He can translate into His kingdom. He *can* do the impossible. He can walk on water, He can sustain a pregnancy in the most dire straits . . . . or He might allow another “loss” (I use that term losely because I do not believe anything is “lost” simply because I do not hold these children in my physical, earthly arms.).

    I do realize everyone is not at this place . . . . I am not trying to “earn” anything, least anyone think that! I simply want to walk by faith. I have so much more faith in God than in my own perceptions of this life…. let’s just say that I don’t trust my own judgement. 🙂

    Oh, and I think Amy W’s suggestion on reading the Bible is excellent. 🙂 I have found – to my suprise – that the Bible is full of instruction on how to raise children. I never expected it, but as it is all about how God teaches and instructs His own children I guess it only makes sense. 🙂

  26. Here’s the thing about the whole post script about a “choice” that was made. If a doctor tells a woman that she is at very serious risk..that her life could be at stake if she decides to have more children, is it really a choice? What if the doctor tells the woman that she is a diabetic and she needs to take insulin on a daily basis. Sure, it’s a “choice” if the woman decides to take her doctor’s advice, but wouldn’t she be foolish not to take the insulin? Is she weak and fainteth because she decided to put her trust in a doctor that could have been put in her life to keep her alive?
    I really wish that a life or death decision wasn’t labeled a “choice” like trying to decide what to have for dinner tonight
    Can doctors be wrong? Yes. I’ve seen it for myself, but I also think that some doctors are called by God to their particular ministry and will not counsel a woman to make a heart breaking decision without a little bit of knowledge about how the human body works and the result of acting rashly because of some ideal that a woman feels she needs to live up to because she is afraid of being labeled “weak”.

  27. “I especially agreed with what you said about medical issues. It *is* a tough decision, but it is still a choice to be made.”

    I’m wondering, is the implication (specifically in the instance cited above) that the choice not to continue having children would be in any way un-Biblical?

    If it’s not un-Biblical, what is the significance of mentioning this is a choice? If it is un-Biblical, why?

    As I’ve read the posts and comments, I’ve been wondering — God is so powerful, is it possible that He speaks to us on the issue of fertility outside the literal opening and closing of the womb? For instance, if one has prayed for guidance and consulted doctors, might His will be communicated in another way other than simply waiting to see if He literally closes the womb? Or are we to only leave this area to God’s will, come what may?

    If we are to only leave this area to God’s will, despite (for instance) medical advice, why in this specific area but not in other areas related to our health and physical well-being? For instance, evangelical Christians do not subscribe to the Christian Scientist view preferring prayer to medical care. Should the area of fertility be an exception, with reliance on prayer and God alone?

    I also wonder about stewardship of the blessings we have — for instance, if parents are blessed with several children and the wife has very difficult pregnancies (you can probably guess from this that my pregnancies have been fairly tough), does her responsibilty to be a good steward of the blessings she already has received from God come into the equation at all (i.e., not risking her life and robbing her children of their mother, if that is a reasonable possibility)?

    I’m a devout Christian but have not subscribed to the “quiverfull” philosophy; however, I have a genuine desire to understand the other point of view more fully (not to argue). These are the kinds of questions that have come to mind as I have carefully read through the posts and comments over the last couple days.

    Just some meandering musings on a difficult subject from a mom of 4 blessings.

    Best wishes,
    Laura

  28. Oh you dear, dear sister! You expressed *exactly* our position on QF (even though we land somewhere in between Calvinism and arminianism theologically). You did it so clearly and so kindly. I especially agreed with what you said about medical issues. It *is* a tough decision, but it is still a choice to be made.

    And you are a much, much, much braver woman than I will ever be. After years of being bashed over the head with claims that I am a legalist at best or an idiot at worst for believing these things, I keep mum for the most part.

  29. Thank you for your thoughts re: quiverfull. I have really appreciated reading about your journey in trusting the Lord and welcoming children. I have found your whole blog to be a blessing and have added you to my blogroll. Please stop by and visit me at:
    http://www.thefullquiverhomeschoolhouse.wordpress.com

  30. Jen,

    This is just a short list of what God says about fruitfulness and multiplying.

    Genesis 1:28; 9:1,7; 16:10; 17:1-6; 22:16-17; 24:60; 26:3-4; 28:3; 30:43;35:11; 47:27; 49:22-26; Exodus 23:26; Leviticus 26:3,9; Deuteronomy 1:10-11; 6:3; 7:13-14; 8:1; 10:22; 13:17; 26:5; 28:4-11; 30:16; Job 5:25; Psalm 92:12-14; 112:1-2; 115:14; 128:3; Isaiah 54:1-2; Jeremaih 17:7-8; 23:3; 29:6; 30:19; 33:22; Ezekiel 36:10-11; John 15:16. I could go on but you get the idea.

    He uses words like abundantly, exceedingly, mightily, greatly, plenteously, multitudinously.

    Deut. 10:9; Gen. 15:5; 22:17; 32:12; Proverbs 14:28; Ex. 1:7-22; 32:15; Ps. 104:24; Ps. 127:3-4; Ez. 16:7.

    Consider why God blesses us with children.

    Gen. 32:12; Deut. 6:3; 7:13; 13:17; 28:11, 63; 30:5, 9, 15-16; Psalm 115:12-15; Luke 1:13-17; Psalm 127:5 Hosea 9:16.

    Consider God’s word on barreness and its relationship to judgement.

    Deuteronomy 4:27; 28:18; 28:62; Hosea 4:10; 9:11-17; Psalm 106:14-15; Ez. 19:10-14; Luke 1:24-25.

    Consider what the Bible says about control of the womb and children.

    Gen.4:1; 21:1; 33:5; 48:9; Josh 24:3; 1 Sam. 2:20-21;1 Chron.28:5; 25:4-6; Ruth 4:13; Is. 8:18;

    If you believe that God is truly in control of procreation and that He creates each and every child, and if you believe His word when He says that children and fruitfulness are a blessing. Why would a Christian use birth control?

    I am not trying to come across as harsh or unkind. It is not my intent. I wish to show what your comments really say in relation to what God’s word has said.

    If you “know” that your quiver is full with 4 children, and you believe that God is sovereign there is no reason to use artificial birth control. God will close your womb. The fact that you have chosen to use some type of birth control indicates that you either don’t believe that God is in control of your womb, OR that you don’t really know that only four children is God’s perfect plan for you.

    Why do Christians wish to limit the blessings that God will send to our families? What is our motivation? God loves children, he loves fruitfulness, he says that barreness is a curse. What biblical reason does one give to CHOOSE barreness, to tell God that you do not wish to have His blessing?

    I pray that I have not come across as unloving. This is a difficult decision and one that requires much sacrifice and I admit that often my attitude is not right and I have sometimes not been thankful to be pregnant again. I am not perfect, or even very good. However, the blessings of allowing God to give you each and every gift that He will, is overwhelming. I can not begin to describe to you the peace and comfort, the joy and love in our home. My motivation for saying these things is to encourage Christians to step out in faith and receive these amazing, wonderful, abounding blessings that God may have for you. The devil would have us look at the difficulties (there are some), but would hide from us the blessing (they make the difficulties vanish in comparison).

    Please, do not miss this wonderful gift that God has for His children!!!!!!

    In Christ’s love,

    Kimberly

    • Okay so here’s my question: how do we know that if we can biologically have 23 children that is God’s will for us and anything short of that isn’t acting in accord with his will? If God calls us to a dangerous mission field for the first 6 years of our marriage where having children isn’t wise, say, and that takes away the opportunity for 5 kids, are we acting against God’s will by not having the most children possible?

      Is it scriptural that one is to have the most children possible? It is scriptural that God loves children and that God wants children and that God is a God of generosity and love, but is he necessarily the God of maximum fertility? Or is that maybe the path he calls some to walk, while he has something else in mind for others?

      (By the way, I’m genuinely interested in a theological discussion)

  31. I am in the interesting position of having one live child, one stillbirth and over a dozen miscarriages. Anyone just glancing at our family would assume that we are the typical ‘one is enough.’ I don’t fit in with that crowd because it is not where my heart is. I know most of you are not judging, but you really never do know. Fortunately, the Lord knows my heart. I rejoice when I see so many righteous parents who ARE able to bring children into this world embracing that and doing their best with them. I know it is not always easy. My biggest trial has been not having the children I wanted and for many of you, it is dealing with the pressures of raising so many. God bless us all, with whatever our quiver looks like. We need it!

  32. so are fertility treatments not considered biblical?

  33. Hi, Kim. I loved your posts. I also appreciate the fact that you do not mince words. Oh, that I were so bold! It’s ironic in our situation that, as we gave this matter over to the Lord (officially) after the birth of our 3rd, I’ve now miscarried and don’t seem to be able to get pregnant with #4. It can be rather discouraging. Especially, when, as finite humans, we feel that our family could be such a testimony in this area. Yet again, the widom of man does not work the righteousness of God. Thanks again for your encouraging words.

  34. Jen-

    You were asking about a list of Scriptures that support not using any family planning method…

    Something I would encourage you to do (this is something an older woman at my church taught me to do when I was in high school if I wondered what the Bible had to say about something) is to read in the Bible as you normally do and have this topic in mind as you read, then underline/highlight/copy down, etc. any verse that you come across that concerns it. This is really helpful to me, and it’s not so overwhelming to wonder “where do I start looking for verses about ____?”

    It’s sounds like you have a really willing spirit to hear God speak to you. I, too, tried to have a willing spirit back in high school when I began to follow this woman’s advice. I think I was wondering if God had a specific plan for my life or not…well, anyway, for months afterwards I found countless places in God’s Word that He used to confirm to me His sovereignty over all things, even my life. For example, when the disciples were choosing a new man to take the place of Judas, they cast lots and God had control over who the lot fell to. I don’t know that I would have recognized that as showing God’s sovereignty had I just been reading through the chapter normally, I probably would have seen it as just another event in Acts. Even now, several years later I still perk up when I come across a verse that depicts God’s Sovereignty!

    I hope this idea helps you 🙂

    Oh, and I wouldn’t say that quiverfull families don’t use any family planning method…that makes it sound like our families just happen randomly. I guess we just consider God the best family planner 🙂

    Amy

  35. I am thinking along the same lines as Leanne…I too liked the challenge you gave for those who do not agree with this view to give a Biblical defense for their view.

    It’s interesting that no one who opposed you (and some so strongly!) gave any Biblical support for what they believe.

    Many people seemed to be leaning towards the “what’s right for you may not be right for me” line of thinking. It is so sad that this sort of thinking has become so rampant in the church (I am sure we have all had times where we have tried to justify our actions this way). It’s almost as if no one wants to admit that there is a right and wrong anymore, every issue is just a “gray area”. Everyone just does “what God led me to do” even if what God supposedly led them to do contradicts His Word. God never calls us to do something that goes against His Word.

    OK, well anyway…I loved your posts on being quiverfull- as a young woman, just married, it is so encouraing to know that there are other like-minded Christian women out there, if only just to be connected through blogs 🙂

    Amy

  36. Well said, Kim, well said. What a good decision to clarify your sentiments with a follow up post. Even though I avoid making such definitive statements because I know people are coming from so many different situations and I don’t want them to think that I don’t take that into consideration, I must say that years ago when the Lord began to speak to me about this issue, it was through the writings of someone who didn’t mince words at all. When the culture is shouting “family planning!” as loud as it does ( and I know it does because I took Health class in high school) then some times it takes frank and bold discussion to counter all that. That’s what I needed to hear years ago. I’m so glad I did. The world’s had the soapbox long enough.

    I read all the comments from the original post because I wanted to understand all those who disaggreeed and why. I always want to take all things into consideration. I am not dogmatic to a fault, I hope. A heart of submission to the Lord- not leagalism – that’s what it’s all about.

    I admire your courage to continue this topic amidst all the controversy. Stuff like that has a novice blogger like me shaking in my boots! But I think you handled it beautifully.
    Suzanne

  37. I would be interested to see a list of scripture you use to support your decision to not use any family planning method. Other than Doug Phillips (is that the name of the VF guy?), are there other reputable christian teachers you know who would agree?

    I am NOT questioning your belief or decision or trying to start a debate. I’m simply interested. I love your blog and I am totally fine with you thinking our decision to limit our family is wrong. Just for
    the record, I would like to say that I don’t think you are wrong. I think we have probably interpreted the exact same passages differently and, in my opinion, birth control is an area of christian liberty. As I said before, we have been blessed four times and our quiver IS full!!

    I am just interested in what scripture you have found to support your beliefs. Just a list of references is fine if you’d rather not make a huge, long post. Or maybe you can direct me to a previous post on the subject. Thanks! I really enjoy your blog!

  38. leanne gilchrist says:

    Hi Kim!

    I couldn’t agree more on both of your posts….I didn’t comment on the first post, so here I am again on the second one!!!

    I loved the part where you encouraged anyone who had a differing opinion/philosophy to give their Biblical defense. My husband often tells me that and operates his life that way. If you can give me a clear, Biblically-based argument for your way of life or belief, then I will totally consider if my way of life or belief is in error. Where you said that too often we mistake our own emotions or opinions for convictions was right on too.

    Yes, I have had two miscarriages, the last one being life threatening, but we have made the decision to trust in God above our doctor, though we love him and appreciate his insight. If God chooses to fill our womb again, I will accept it, and if the next pregnancy ends in miscarriage again, I will accept that as well as a live baby in my arms. What else can we do?? What help, relief or difference does it make to kick, scream, and rail against our sovereign God? So we will leave the area of how many children we have up to the Lord.

    I love your thought provoking, well written, well thought out posts!

    Leanne in Longview WA

  39. Kim, I am happy that you can be God-confident in what is best for your family, just as I am confident in what God has planned for mine. Love you and your young’uns. Love in Christ, Caroline

  40. I think this is one of the things that I enjoy the most about your blog. You are not about tickling people’s ears. Many of the blogs I read never take a stand on issues and therefore do not offer much in the way of encouraging me to better things. I think a clear stand is the most loving thing one can do.
    We have four children and hope for more, but we have not yet been convinced about the future (i.e. do we stop having children at some point). Thus far, we have just taken it one day at a time and have been blessed by each child He has given. I say this to explain that I need to hear what “older” women have concluded about this topic and why –Biblically. So, thank you for this and I look forward to hearing about your journey and the specifics of your convictions.

  41. You know, I completely agreed with both of your posts, and I hope that I did not come across as angry or upset.

    The point I’d hoped to make clear is that allowing God to determine your family size does not guarantee anyone a large (or any) amount of children. Over the past few years, I have been on the receiving end of several comments and prideful assumptions by families who (as I do) label themselves quiverful. (Yes, having a quiverfull mindeset can, for some people, be a source of pride issues.)

    I’d hoped to make clear that NOT having 8 children is indeed a choice, though not necessarily one made by the parents involved. Clearly, through the miscarriages of our 5 children, God *chooses* for us to only have 3 children in our quiver. But to assume that our having a smaller number of children is due to choices that *we as parents* made, would be an incorrect assumption.

  42. Kim,
    I was completely with you on the first post, but thought I’d come back and give me two cents here as well.
    Being open to any and all of God’s blessings is certainly not an easy road physically. But for me, when I think of the sense of peace I have now, completely handing myself over to God in this area, oh my word…no words can describe. Yes, I get horribly ill with each pregnancy and yes, because of some chiropractic issues I can barely walk at the end of a pregnancy, but the gift of a new life never gets old. Unfortunately, our physical bodies do …and then we get grandchildren!
    We can never please everyone Kim and I say good for you for sharing what you believe. I saw nothing offensive in your opinions the first time, but the fact that you were gracious enough to come back and re-explain yourself should show those accusing you (on your own blog no less) of being harsh, should most certainly prove that your intentions were not to offend only to offer insight into your beliefs.

  43. I have to comment on Sheila’s question: “C’mon, people, how hard is it to trust God in something particularly of such eternal value!?”

    For me? VERY hard. It does not follow that we shouldn’t trustt Him anyway–in any area–but it is not always easy, by any means.

  44. “I will not…speak anymore in His name. But His word was in my heart like a burning fire shut up in my bones; I was weary of holding it back, and I could not.” Jer. 20:9

    You are an encouragement to me. Thanks.

  45. I didn’t comment on your first post, but I wanted to let you know it ministered to me. The Lord has been leading me this way for a while now ( though I had never heard of the quiverfull movement, and I don’t really do *movements*, but I see this as an area I need to trust God with the out come on. I want to trust God with every bit of my life, and not hold any back!), but you know what the Lord spoke to my heart? To follow my husband.

    Lately, it seems he has been a little nervous about if we are ready for another baby quite yet. I can see this hesitation is a heart issue. I can see his rational, (we have a small car and no room for another car seat, it isn’t in the budget to get a bigger vehicle right now…isn’t it smarter to wait right now?) but, Does he trust God with his WHOLE life. Whole is a lot, and at times we want to hang on to some things that it *seems* we have control over… We’ve talked about this, and we have committed this to God – to determine the size of our family, but I can see he’s taken a bit of it back. I WILL follow my husband because that’s what the Lord has told me to do, but I will be praying for Him! I know he wants to serve God with his whole life, this is just a step in getting there. He’s a Godly man and wonderful husband. I know he is seeking the Lord.

    “each of us to examine our decisions and convictions in light of Scripture rather than resting upon the standard lines of reasoning.” so important. I am learning to do this in so many areas of my life. It’s so hard to re-learn a way of thinking that affects everything. Many times I’m sad that close friends and family don’t see value in things we choose to obey God in, but I pray they will… for now they may think we’re peculiar, but that’s okay, we’re called to be!

    “But ye are a chosen generation,a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light ” (1 Peter 2:9, KJV)

  46. Thank you for the clarifications, Kim, even though I felt your first post was pretty clear! 🙂
    I, personally, have a hard time with others (fellow Christians) not having the open heart to receiving God’s blessing of children in His timing, spacing, etc., particularly because of the lack of FAITH I see. C’mon, people, how hard is it to trust God in something particularly of such eternal value!? My pastor husband has to gently remind me that not everyone is at the same place spiritually and that I need to have grace and mercy, etc. Sigh. It’s definitely an issue I feel passionate about.
    It’s never been about a magic number, but about our open hearts and willingness to be vessels God can use.

  47. I just wanted to point out that, while your direct and forthright way of taking on hard subjects sometimes offends some, it also convicts some. I want you to know that about 1 year ago you and your comments to me on your blog were the divinely sent “kick in the posterior” I needed to make the leap into Quiverfull. My wife was already decided. God was decided and had been pushing me in that direction for months. I read your blog daily to get an idea of what godly large families are like. Then I asked the question: “Do you think birth control is unbiblical and takes the control away from God?” I knew the answer, but for some reason, having you say it was the push I needed. You said “If we’re tempted to use birth control we need to ask ourselves why. Remember that many of the same reasons we convince ourselves not to have more children are the same reasons some women choose to have abortions. They don’t have the money, don’t want a baby right now, doesn’t fit my plan, etc, etc.”

    I think our reaction to your counsel depends on where we are on our journey towards “Quiverfull”. I was right on the edge, and your words convicted me. Had it been 1-2 years earlier I probably wouldn’t have even been looking at your blog, and had I, your words would have totally offended me.

    From the bottom of my heart, thank you for your conviction to speak forthrightly and frankly. You never do it judgementally or in a “holier than thou” way. You temper your words with love and concern for fellow Christians and I appreciate them.

  48. I didn’t see the quiverfull post, but I am going to look for it.

  49. I just wanted to also add that I *did* thoroughly enjoy your post on Quiverfull. I shared it with my husband and we both got such a blessing out of it. We were both just recently convicted on this very issue and feel so blessed that we made the decision we did. Thus, number five is on the way. 🙂

  50. Kim, I have since stopped “encouraging” other Christian women on my blog, as it turns into just what your’s did. If someone knows they are wrong, they know it already, and nothing you say can change them. You’re never going to reason someone into making a positive change, it takes God convicting them, just as it took God convicting my husband and me. Now I only post about things I am trying to change in myself and *That* stirs more positive self-reflection in others than my pointing out to others what’s right and wrong. It was a hard lesson for me. We all have different purposes, that’s for sure. Perhaps your purpose IS to do just this, to push uncomfortable subjects on people who don’t want to hear or accept “truth”. That’s between you and The Lord, I simply felt pressed to share my experience with you. God bless!

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