On Palin
It's late, and I'm already short on sleep so I'll try to make this short and sweet. So far, my valiant husband has stirred up most of the political controversy on our blog, but I really need to say a few words as well.
I'm not trying to cause division in the Christian community, but we must be united on the right side. I am just heartsick over the way so much of the Christian community has enthusiastically fallen in line behind a feminist candidate for VP simply because she professes to be pro-life and a Christian.
Do we really believe that this is the extent of God's revealed standard for our civil rulers? Is there neutrality in government? Do our rulers live outside of God's law? Is God silent on the matter, because He has no opinion or requirements?
The standard for rulers is laid out just as clearly as the standard for elders in the church - and the standard is specifically masculine, among other things.
So many of us agree on the complementary roles of women and men in the home and in the church, yet our own sisters and brothers in Christ are denying that this aspect of our very nature has any influence in the third sphere of God-originating authority: that of civil government. What are they thinking?
But it's not just about Palin's gender. There are other issues that ought to dampen the enthusiasm of Palin's Christian fans. She supports tax-payer funded contraceptives and sex-ed in schools. She vetoed pro-family legislation in Alaska, guaranteeing special rights to homosexuals. And she is a self-proclaimed feminist.
And McCain's record is far worse. Remember him? It's not all about Sarah Palin.
Doesn't any of this set off alarm bells? I would rather have Obama in office while Christians pray fervently for national repentance than have McCain and Palin in office with the full approval of the general Christian community.
Please take the time to read Bill Einwechter's article, Sarah Palin and the Complementarian Compromise. It's long, but worth the time. Can you use Scripture to defend a vote for Palin? Never mind how you feel about it or "what your heart tells you"; what does God tell you in His perfect Word? It's trite but true: a vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. Psalm 127:1
Related posts:
- Is Sarah Palin the New Deborah?
- Doug Phillips on "End of the Spear"
- Is McCain Pro-Life?
- Vision Forum Ministries responds to the CBMW’s Double Standard
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Filed under: Huh? Category?
Wow. I’m slightly offended that you would refer to Palin as “the lesser of two evils.”
This is a woman who is a baptized Christian. A sister in Christ. (Not just since she joined politics, mind you. She’s been a member of the same church since she was young.) She is proven to be pro-life, even in the case of her own Downs son. She is HUMAN, and therefore not perfect, but God is using her in big ways to bring about a possible change in our country.
There will never be a perfect candidate… yet we are called to support those that seek to do right, aren’t we?
I see that you mention Palin being a “feminist”, but I believe what Palin proudly proclaims herself to be is a member of “feminists for life”, a pro-life group of women who feel God has called them to protect the unborn and educate women. I may not agree with 100% of what this group stands for, but I also don’t agree with 100% of what the Amish stand for, or the Catholics. Does that mean I would never vote for one? Uhh, no.
I’m proud to say that I’ll be voting for McCain and Palin in November. This won’t be the first time God chooses to use a female to do great things!
Politely disagreeing,
Leah in Alaska
Just out of interest, does this mean you’re voting for Obama?
Leah, I agree a lot with what you said. I have some issues with Palin but I would rather have her in the white house and be praying regarding those issues than praying for Obama administration and all the issues.
Leah,
Perfection is NOT the issue. Just as in the article biblical qualification is the issue. Palin calls several things “good” that God calls evil – like abortion in the life of the mother or sex education for children – this alone would make her unqualified.
Our nation was built on men and women who stood firm on God’s standards no matter what the odds. If Bill E. is correct and I believe he is, then we must not give assent to those who are unqualified by God’s standards, to rule over us no matter how bleak an Obama presidency looks.
Jesse no we are not voting for Obama for the same reason we are not voting for McCain.
He does not meet the Bible’s qualifications for civil leadership. Right now it looks as if we are going to vote for Chuck Baldwin for President.
http://www.baldwin08.com/
I’m a strong supporter of McCain. Yes he is strongly prolife and actually wants to turn over Roe vs Wade since is was decided on a bad interpertation of the constitution. As a Republican woman, I love seeing a canidate that represents me. She is for abstinence only ed in schools which I’m against. It’s niave to think that kids aren’t having sex. They need to know about birth control. Yes I’m for birth control. A family has the right to control their family size and this is the responsible thing to do on so many levels. the Feminist for Life group is strongly pro-life. They encourage pregnant college students to finish their education while raising a child. They also stand for equal rights for women. Such as the right to vote, own property, receive the same level of education, and have a successful career but also recognizing that their are clear gender differences. This is different from feminism and patriarchy which tends to put one gender over the other. We are equal but different.
“Palin for President”
You better check her record again she is not only for abstinence only.
Kids and Adults can be taught to control themselves.
The government controlled schools that refuse the Lord’s standards is not the place to be teaching ANYONE much less children about sexual relations.
Home is.
One more thing for now.
If you are not a Christian then what Kim said and what the article posits will not make much sense.
If you are – please weigh the words of the article. Does God’s word say anything about how we should vote? If so they should weigh on you, on your decision if you are planning to vote.
I so agree with you on this issue. as she talks more and more i hear people saying how wonderful she is and i think to myself it is just not right. I can talk to other Christians and they all say the ame thing well it is better than having Obama.
I at have decided from the beginning that I will not be voting for McCain. I can’t go against what I believe. God convicted me in this area and I will stand firm even if no one else does.
Thanks for all these great posts.
I don’t mean to be snarky, Perry, but the Bible says nothing about teaching children sex education. We as Christians understand that it is not conducive to God’s law (i.e. sex only within marriage), but to say that God calls sex education “evil” is not exactly honest. In my church they call that legalism.
I was also taken aback by how quickly you dismiss (and even question, perhaps?) her profession of faith in Jesus. We will never know anyone’s true faith until we see them in Heaven, as much as we may question and disagree with the manifestation of personal faith.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think a wasted vote based solely on ridiculously naive and unattainable principles is far more detrimental to the country than one where you may not agree 100% with the candidate.
I, too, am shocked at the complete about face on feminist issues that many Christians are taking on Palin. Honestly, she has a husband and five children. Two who will need her desperately. I simply don’t get how some people can say she can be a Titus 2 woman and be absent from her home.
The other thing I don’t get is we just came through 8 years with a self-proclaimed, pro-life Christian and Roe v Wade is just as much the law of the land as ever. What’s all this hope people are putting in a VP?!
I agree with you that I would rather have Obama as Christians wake-up to the state of our nation than have McCain and we continue to slumber.
My husband and I completely disagree with you…we’ve had long talks about your perspective.
If there weren’t that little thing called a Supreme Court appointment or two or three or four, we could understand voting your conscience in November, where a vote for someone outside the two main candidates is a throw-away vote, or a vote for the greater of two evils.
But to help a socialist like Obama do the damage he intends is not something we think that God calls us to do. We pray that God will work with the lesser of two evils, who happen to be Christian, rather than work with the greater of two evils, who mock the Christian faith.
Palin for President: You made the comment that McCain is strongly pro-life. How do you reconcile that statement with the fact that McCain has stated that he wishes to expand the federal funding of embryonic stem cell research (May 3, 2007 GOP primary debate). Rephrased: he wants to take our money and use it to experiment and kill unborn children in the name of science! If you look at his voting record in the senate, I believe that backs up his claim.
Kim and Perry, thanks for the post and comments. I believe that the Lord is bringing judgement on this nation because of exactly what you are saying. Christians have rejected the word of God as the final and ultimate authority and instead have a spirit of unbelief and fear.
Unbelief in that we don’t believe that we need to obey God’s word in ALL that we do and we do not believe that God’s word should govern ALL our actions.
Unbelief and fear in that we don’t believe that God is able to bring whom He wills into power. We think that we must take that responsibility on ourselves and vote for the lesser of two evils in order to save our country. Until we as Christians are willing to speak and act in obedience to God’s word and willingly accept the God ordained results of that obedience, we can not expect blessing and our nation will not be saved. We must obey and let God be God.
Unbelief in an unwillingness to stand against something that God calls a judgement (women ruling over us), but instead to embrace it and try with all our might to bring it about. Has God said? Does it matter? The seeming attitude of Christians today is that it doesn’t matter because this woman is a good woman and what will happen if Obama gets into office.
I pray that Christians will soon be carachterized by strength and courage, faith, and trust. We serve a loveing, merciful, and SOVEREIGN God. Be stong and of good courage.
Oh, sorry about the horrible spelling. I should obviously have proof read before I hit post.
I agree that children and adults can be taught to control themselves, and that the proper place to learn about these matters is in the home.
However, the problem with that is that most people do not address these issues in the home. Christian and Non-Christian families alike. Perhaps this is something churches (leaders) need to address with parents.
When I was in college, I did volunteer work with a Child Abuse Prevention agency. What I saw in some inner city areas of a large metropolitan area would shock most people. There are people who were teen parents themselves that encourage this activity with their own teens so that they are eligible for more government benefits. Obviously, they are not teaching the right moral standard. When birth control and education (promoting that abstinence is not only OK, but preferred) was offered to these young teens at the community center as part of the program (the school wouldn’t allow it there), the turnout was phenomenal. These kids WANTED to know more. Christian principles and morals were taught, and many souls were saved. For those that were going to engage regardless, birth control and safe practices were taught which cut down dramatically on disease in this community. The teen pregnancy rate declined, and graduation rates and college entry rates escalated. While I disagree with these teachings on principle, I have to admit that they are effective.
Many of these kids, once they were able to break the cycle that they felt trapped in, were able to get themselves and their families out of poverty. Many were brought to Christ, which was the ultimate point. They are now in a position to teach Christian morals in their own homes to their children, but the point is that they had to be won first.
I think that when looking at the big picture that this political race encompasses, it is important to take into consideration what is best for the entire country when making our decision. While homeschooling and teaching morals in the home is obviously the best solution, it is not what the majority in our country do.
I think it is important to pray for God’s will for our country in this situation, and vote how He guides you. He might have a larger plan that we are unaware of, or capable of understanding at this juncture. Perhaps if we are all doing this with an open heart and mind, we will not know who we are going to vote for until we cast our ballet.
While Palin says she is against abortion except in cases where the mother’s life is in danger, that does not mean that any woman HAS to have an abortion in any situation. Christians can still uphold our morals and standards, and show ourselves as examples in our everyday lives.
In agreement here, too!
We’re also voting for Baldwin!
Soli Deo Gloria!
I thought our country was founded with the view of “seperation of church and state”. I sure hear a lot about “church” when it really has nothing to do with the running of our country. I think we need to leave religion out of politics completely because there are many different religions that create our country. Just because not everyone believes in your views does not make it wrong. I feel sorry for people like you that are so close minded that you truly miss out on some truly amazing people.
Karen you said “I think it is important to pray for God’s will for our country in this situation, and vote how He guides you”
I couldn’t agree more. The question is…how does He guide us?
I say it’s by his objective infallible word. So what does his word say about voting? Einwecter addresses the points incredibly well from not just a historic standpoint but also and exegetical “what sayeth the Scriptures” standpoint.
Folks it doesn’t matter who is running if they do not meet the qualification laid out in Scripture for civil magistrates.
I’ve been heavy hearted about this for a while now. I was very excited about Ron Paul and disappointed when he dropped out of the running. I did see the McCain Palin ticket as the “lesser of two evils” but you are right (and I never saw it this way before) it is still an evil. I am interested in Chuck Baldwin, this is the first I have heard of him and will be doing more research, but what I see looks good. My question is this; if there is not a candidate that you feel you can support wholeheartedly do you abstain from voting? Isn’t that in essence voting too?
Just curious why Perry is answering all the comments, when Kim is the one who wrote this post. Can’t she speak for herself? Or does she not get that opportunity in your “male-headed” household? I’ve often wondered just how oppressed a woman is in situations like that. Perhaps here is my answer.
So how exactly do you propose we vote for — since there are so many “perfect” choices? Let he who is perfect cast the first stone … Politicians are not supposed to be ministers, by the way; they set the policy agenda for the nation, and McCain and Palin will do a far better job following a conservative policy than will the alternative. May I suggest you be realistic about the choice that is before us and think about the choice that we actually have to make.
I just re-read your post. You said “simply because she professes to be a Christian.” You are actually playing God here and telling us that you judge this woman NOT to be a Christian simply because you think you are better than she is because you stay home with your children and see does not. WOW. What on earth gives you the gall to judge whether or not a fellow believer in Christ is a Christian or not? It is one thing to disagree with her politically and to vote for another candidate, but I am appalled that one believer would call into question the salvation of another. Judge her politics all you want, but you have no right to judge her faith. You are way out of line. Last time I checked there was only one God, and it wasn’t you.
Hello-
I can understand what you are saying Kim and Perry, but I think some of us in the Christian community are willing to vote for McCain/Palin because it is the lesser of two evils. What choice do we have? I cannot vote for Obama because I don’t feel he is any more “Christian” than McCain/Palin and I have a really difficult time with his less than patriotic attitude toward our country. My husband serves in the Air Force, so who I vote for could potentially be his commander and chief. So, that is why I am voting for McCain/Palin, I just don’t feel like there is any better option, and I refuse not to vote, since my husband has served twice in Iraq protecting that freedom. He also protects our freedom to have these kind of “debates” and I am thankful for you choosing to post on the matter. We have the freedom of being able to share our own opinion, isn’t that wonderful?!
Samantha- I felt that your comment was a little rude and not at all constructive. Maybe Kim is just tired, she is a contented mother to 11 children. Perhaps she is putting her children’s needs before her own. If Kim was so “oppressed” by her husband, than I doubt he would allow her to even blog. Let’s be a little more courteous in sharing our opinions. We can have differences in opinions and discuss them in a way that would honor Christ.
Blessings,
Lacey
Perry Says
“Palin calls several things “good” that God calls evil like abortion in the life of the mother or sex education for children ”
Well to begin with we’re never going to find a candidate who is against abortion if the mother’s life is in danger. If the mother dies, so does the baby, so I really don’t see the purpose in allowing both to die. There is no preservation of life in this case, just the loss of life. In fact, it could be argued t hat the woman commits a sin of suicide if she does not abort. I’m not saying I necessarally agree with this position, but it is an argument that has been used in the Talmud to command Jewish women abort in such situations.
As for her stance on sex ed. She has said that she will not approve “explicit” sex ed, but does believe in sex ed that discusses contraception. I think it is our jcb to educated our government about the abortificient nature of hormonal birth control, since most people are unaware exactly how it works. As for other contraceptives, I believe their use is a matter of our personal relationship with God and our convictions on the matter. While the bible teaches that children are a blessing, we are not told that contraceptive is a sin.
The only mention regarding contraception is mention of a specific disobedience to God that I do not believe can be extrapolated to mean that all contraception is disobedience to God.
Kim, it greatly troubles me that you would rather have Obama in office. This man has said that his very first act in office will be signing FOCA which will repeal all abortion laws. At this critical election where it is very possible that two Supreme Court positions will be open, it is imperitive that we elect someone who will elect strict constitutionalist judges, as McCain has promised to do.
I think that you make a really strong argument when you bring up McCain. He’s the one on the ticket, and yet it’s a distraction to talk about Palin.
My mind’s not made up on her possible “job” and whether she should even be doing that, but my family follows more what you say, and that’s what I feel personally. I know that God has used women in the past, and even prodded on leaders using women, so I’ll still think through that.
The lesser of two evils is trite, and attempts to dodge the fact that we will never have a “perfect cadidate” or “perfect President.” It’s impossible. Only when the Prince of Peace returns to rule will we have a perfect leader.
Until that point, we’ll always be choosing the better of two candidates (or in the negative, the lesser of two evils).
But I’m totally with you that Christians should be praying that God would work in hearts so the country would long for a leader that puts God first.
AMEN AMEN AMEN SISTER!!!!!!!! i totally agree with you. i have been blogging about this for a few days and i have only 1 person who feels as you and i do! SHOCKING!! don’t these people read the bible?!
Also, it is disingenous to pretend that your third party vote does not amount to a vote for evil.
Our actions do not exist in a vaccum. When we pull the lever for a candidate that is in competition within our own party, we are casting a vote for the other side. We can pat ourselves on the back for “not voting for the lesser of two evils,” but the reality is that we have now voted for the greater of two evils, but backhandedly, and with much self congratulation.
I have been reading your blog for a while- your family amazes me! I had to comment on this post- I just couldn’t pass up the opportunity! I am also a complementarian- I believe in male leadership, I stay at home with my four children six and under, I try to be a good helpmeet to my assistant pastor husband. But, I strongly disagree with you.
Obama is evil. He is for infanticide, welfare, and the communistic society. I shudder to think of what it would be like for our children, grandchildren, and future generations if he got into office. McCain and Palin are much better then Obama. Not perfect, but much better. I can not- in a clear conscience, vote for anyone but them. Any other vote would be a vote for Obama, and I could not shoulder the responsibility of helping such a man get into office. So, I choose between going against the natural order of having men in office, or I vote for a man that murders babies- even babies that survive abortions. It’s not even a choice for me.
One more thing- where are all our men??? This is one of the reasons that Sarah Palin has stepped up to the plate! If all the great men that are sitting at their computers typing out articles *against* Sarah Palin would use their great oratory skills, talents, and convictions to *do something* in politics, then we wouldn’t even be debating this. I say to the men, “If you don’t like a woman in charge, then step up to the plate, and run for office!” And don’t say that they would never get elected. Sarah Palin is a true conservative, with conservative values, and she got elected. It can be done.
There is a huge difference between a woman being in office, and a man that supports infanticide, universal healthcare, abortions, and all other un-Biblical, morally wrong things. I am very surprised that you would rather see Obama in office than a woman supported by Christians in office. I am about as complementarian as they get. But I do not agree with that assesment. (my husband also agrees with me.)
Thank you, Kim, for holding up God’s Word as our standard. The words of Samuel Adams come to mind here-
“We have this day restored the Sovereign, to Whom alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and. . . from the rising to the setting sun, may his Kingdom come.”
It may be a small beginning, but when we apply God’s law to our votes we are doing this very thing.
Keep Standing,
Andrea
Spurgeon said (and I”m not certain this is word-perfect): “When faced with a choice between two evils, choose NEITHER.”
Voting against your conscience is wrong and dangerous. If you vote for McCain (even though you don’t approve of him) because you think he’s better than Obama, you’ve just “chosen the lesser of two evils.”
Take “the lesser of two” out of the phrase, and you’ve just “chosen evils.”
I love my country, and I don’t WANT Obama running it! But if to keep him away from presidency requires me to cross my conscience, it’s wrong.
Others may look on voting for anyone besides Obama or McCain as throwing away a vote. And wasting a vote may affect the judges that are appointed in the future, or laws that are repealed!
Maybe. Maybe not. My God is still on the throne, and I’m certain He’s quite capable of controlling even Obama. (IF Obama is the one who wins.)
When I stand before the judge of Heaven and Earth, I’m not going to care who was running my country. I’m only going to care if I was faithful to follow what I know is right.
My pastor has lived in other countries. He knows what he is talking about when he says it’s POSSIBLE to live under other governments. (though not exactly pleasant). The Chinese Church survives. But voting for what I believe is wrong would be deathly to my soul.
Separate nations don’t exist in Heaven, as far as I know. America isn’t going to be in Heaven.
I will.
And I care about what I will need to account for.
I’m not saying who I’ll vote for. I don’t know yet. I’m just saying that when I have finished reading, and praying, and listening to my father’s counsel, I’m going to vote only for what is good, not what is “better than what it could be.”
No compromises.
Way to go, Kim! I agree. We need to be watchful and careful that we abide by God’s standards. Having a Christian worldview goes beyond merely being on the right side of the issues of abortion. If one has a Christian worldview, it will affect his total thinking and lifestyle. I guess that definition really trims down the amount of politicians we thought had a Christian worldview!
I agree that Christians ought to be careful that we don’t throw our total support behind a candidate just because he or she is “pro-life.” Abolishing abortion is important, but voting for someone with untrustworthy character, etc., is not the way to do it. We have put tyrants like Bush and others in office, because they told us they lived by “faith” and were “pro-life.” Now people around the country see Christians as responsible for engineering all this country’s problems. Let’s not make that same mistake again.
Keep up the good work!
The Bible tells us the battle is the Lords and it is not the strength of our armies, or our votes, that will bring about a win but God alone. So, to say that Christians “have to” vote for a person that someone feels is the “lesser of the evils” is putting our hope in the election process and not in God. We are not to fear man (or presidents) but we are to fear God. I believe I am to do my duty to God and let Him deal with the outcome.
Samantha gaciously asked
“Just curious why Perry is answering all the comments, when Kim is the one who wrote this post. Can’t she speak for herself? Or does she not get that opportunity in your “male-headed” household? I’ve often wondered just how oppressed a woman is in situations like that. Perhaps here is my answer.”
Hey Samantha thanks for your question. To put it bluntly no she is not allowed to speak for herself.
Joking.
Actually she is running errands including a midwife appointment that is 2 hours from home so I happen to be a little closer to the computer today (although not by much).
We are very busy in the Vision Forum warehouse getting ready for the new catalog.
cheers
Lauren when you said “Well to begin with we’re never going to find a candidate who is against abortion if the mother’s life is in danger. If the mother dies, so does the baby, so I really don’t see the purpose in allowing both to die.”
It is a red herring. I never suggested anyone needs to stand idly by when the mother dies. What I did suggest is we need candidates who will not proclaim it alright to preemptively kill a growing baby.
As for the Obama vs McCain on abortion, no doubt that Obama would be far more aggressive in his support for abortion but McCain is only better by degrees, having to my knowledge never voted to defund planned parenthood (just one example)
BUT
Since neither meet the biblical qualifications for elected leaders (see the article Kim linked to above) I think it’s a moot point. if they don’t fit who we are instructed to choose for leaders then we may not vote for them.
MintheGap said “The lesser of two evils is trite, and attempts to dodge the fact that we will never have a “perfect cadidate” or “perfect President.” It’s impossible. Only when the Prince of Peace returns to rule will we have a perfect leader.”
The issue is NOT perfection. We are not looking for a perfect candidate. We are looking for one that meets the qualifications Bill laid out in the article. You are correct that perfection is impossible this side of heaven but that does not release us in our obligations to God’s standards.
Minthegap said “Until that point, we’ll always be choosing the better of two candidates (or in the negative, the lesser of two evils).”
We actually I’m choosing a 3rd most likely Chuck Baldwin he is the only one that can pass the qualification test (IMHO)
Thanks for the comment.
Kim & Perry,
Thanks for writing this. Hubby and I have been discussing this for several days. While there are many good things about the Palin nomination (and some not so good as you’ve pointed out) & her politics we’re left to wonder if there weren’t any men who shared the acceptable part of her beliefs. Was she picked because of her beliefs or because she was a woman with those beliefs?
Hubby’s not sure we would swallow the McCain pill even if we were totally on board with Palins beliefs. He’s not even mentioning the disagreeable parts of her political platform. Or that she’s a woman.
Sincerely,
–BethP
ps, maybe I’ll just get pregnant this fall. I”m always in a better mood when I’m pregnant! Prayers in that direction always appreciated!
Lauren said
“Also, it is disingenuous to pretend that your third party vote does not amount to a vote for evil.
Our actions do not exist in a vacuum. When we pull the lever for a candidate that is in competition within our own party, we are casting a vote for the other side.”
To which I reply….see you lost me at that last right turn…the Republicrats are not my party or Kim’s party. We don’t have a party. We try to discern which candidates are qualified based on our understanding of clear Scriptures. We may not always be correct or consistent but we try as much as we are able to make biblical guidelines and not party lines our standard for voting.
Lauren,
A candidate either gets our vote or they do not. Neither I nor my hubby are into ‘defensive voting’. Offense only has to be lucky once, defense has to be lucky every single time.
How has that defensive voting worked out for the right wing lately? IMHO all it’s done is triangulate this country further and further to the left.
Sincerely,
BethP
Please stop slandering Palin. It’s bad enough she has to put up with attacks from the liberal media. Can’t her own brothers and sisters in Christ show her some grace? Scripture says that men are head of their wives and only their wives as well as leaders in their church. It doesn’t speak for women in public office.
I too am waiting to here Kims reply since she is the one who posted.
Wow PalinforPresident did you read the article and the Scriptures quoted in it?
Scripture speaks directly to the issue when it says
“Choose for your tribes wise, understanding, and experienced men, and I will appoint them as your heads.’” Deut 13:1
In other words WHEN you VOTE choose MEN.
Again in Exodus 18 when it says “1Moreover, look for able men from all the people, men who fear God, who are trustworthy and hate a bribe, and place such men over the people as chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.”
The masculine here is intentional. If you try to say that men doesn’t mean “male persons” here then you have no log to stand on in Timothy when we are commanded to have the husband of one wife” as elders.
Just curious, Perry: What do you say to a woman who is obedient to her husband when he tells her who to vote for, even if she desires to vote for someone else or not at all?
I also just wanted to say that in our “goverment” schools here in the South, parents have the right to review reproductive health materials and decide if their children will participate in the class. Our children most likely will not when they reach that age. We have been teaching them about God’s plan for sex but it is SCARY how many Christian parents do not!
The tribes refers to the tribes of Israel not modern day American politics. Stop twisting scripture around to fit into your mysgomist mindset.
Hey Karen (Palin for President),
Who were they?
They were the people of God.
Who is the people of God today (according to the book of Romans)?
The Church.
What were the tribes of Israel doing?
Electing leaders.
Who were they commanded to pick?
Godly MEN.
Can you explain how this does NOT apply to us?
Thanks and back to work.
Perry
Oh yeah Karen…calling names is a sure sign of a weak argument.
All I can say is GO KIM. I am relieved to see someone else out there who feels like we do! A momma belongs with her family not out ruling a nation!
Perry and Kim,
AMEN! You are speaking the truth. Not only your words, but what scripture actually has to say on this matter. It is so clear, and there is no “unless this or that happens, then it’s okay”. Our fellow believing friends and my husband’s coworkers think the McCain/Palin vote is the “only” way to go. Most of them have said “it’s better then Obama”. It’s sad to me that our country was founded on these biblical truths and what now, are we suddenly above the Bible? Above God? Have we gained so much knowledge that we now know what is best, even if God says, several times, He is against it? Is God not bigger and oh so much smarter than us? I feel as though people are telling God to sit this one out, that we’ve got it under control, we can make an even better choice then what was in His plan(the Bible). My husband and I will keep turning to the Bible for our answers and guess what, God doesn’t change His mind and there will be consequences for our country’s actions.
Karen one other quick question…
Exactly which precepts in Scripture were given to “modern day America”?
Near as I can tell they were ALL given to people long long ago in a land far far away.
Perry, perhaps party was the wrong choice of words in that situation. In reality I’m not all that much of a die hard republican either. What I am, however, is someone who is very pro-life. Honestly, I supported Ron Paul in the primaries.
However, it does not change the fact that a vote for anyone but McCain (unless you voted with the green party…which seems unlikely
) is a vote for Obama. I do no think that it is something that a pro-life Christian can do and claim that they simply “sat out”. Sitting out is voting for Obama, regardless of the name written in on the ballot.
I trust that God is in control, but I don’t think that gives me license to act irresponsibly. I wouldn’t run into oncoming trafic and say “it’s cool, God’s in control I won’t get hurt”. I trust in God, but I also must you the reason he has instilled inside of me. Honestly, I understand not wanting to vote for someone not completely pro-life, but after much prayer I can not support anyone who will indirectly support Obama.
This will be the first election I’m able to vote in, and honestly, I think that some of the comments I’ve been reading are simply ridiculous.
Why isn’t it okay for a mother to work outside of the home? I’m a conservative Christian, and I have NEVER understood the idea that a woman who works can’t be a mom, too. Now, my mom stays at home, and my brother is home schooled, so I’m the only child who has been out in public schools. I love having my mother at home, but honestly, if she wanted to go and work, too, that would be great. Just because she would have a job doesn’t mean she would be neglecting her children. I know plenty of absolutely wonderful Christian mothers who work full time jobs and their children turn out great. But that’s enough of that.
As for Palin, I find her remarkable. Maybe you don’t agree with her stance on sex ed or the make-up of a family. Good for you. But the point is that those are things that are pertinent to our country right now. It does’t matter if you agree with her or not, there are still problems that need to be resolved regarding homosexuals and kids having sex. Just because we don’t agree with them, doesn’t mean that kids are going to stop having sex or homosexuals are going to stop wanting rights. She’s not running away from the issue , she’s providing realistic solutions. Which is an important trait to have in politics.
Also, being a “self-proclaimed feminist” doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing for everyone. For some reason there is a stereotype out there that all feminists want to overthrow men, hold hands,and sing “I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar” while burning their unmentionables. But for some people, it just means that they want to stand up for themselves and have a chance to have their say in what’s going on in politics. What better way than to go to the White House? Maybe that’s what we need. Because you seem to think that our country is in decline, maybe you should consider the fact that men having been leading the country while all that decline has been going on. Maybe we need new perspective and have more than just white men deciding what’s best for the country.
Wow. I really stirred up a hornet nest. Where to start?
1. I haven’t been replying to comments because I left the house at 8 AM and only just got home. See? My husband does let me out of the house.
2. I won’t be replying to every comment and question because we’re expecting a houseful of company in a couple of hours and I have work to do.
3. I didn’t question or pass judgment upon Sarah Palin’s faith. Like her, I profess Christianity. My 4yo is a pro-life professing Christian. My point was simply that being a professing Christian (and pro-life) does not automatically qualify a person for the office of VP and potentially President of the US. It takes more,and God has provided that standard for us.
4. My husband has done a wonderful job of answering most of the objections raised, and I will not be spending a lot of time repeating what he has said. We agree upon this issue, so please take time to read his answers before posing a question. There’s a good chance that your question has been answered. I realize that there is also a good chance that you didn’t like his answer, but mine will be strikingly similar.
5. Please keep it courteous and civil. As usual, you are welcome to disagree, but keep in mind that you on my blog, not a public street corner. If you are too riled to be courteous, you are invited to leave. If you leave a heated comment, please don’t be surprised if it disappears.
6. Please read the comments before you ask a question. I know there are lot of them already, but this too is a matter of courtesy.
If your comment repeats a question that has already been asked several times and answered, I just might hit the delete button. Please take time to fully engage the discussion if you are going to enter it.
7. “Separation of church and state,” as the phrase is generally understood, is bogus. The phrase was not invented to mean that Christianity has no place in government, and most Christians understand that there is no neutrality in life. If a nation is not governed by Biblical principles, it will be governed upon the principles of another religion – in our country, most likely secular humanism.
If you disagree on this point, then we won’t get far in any discussion.
I hope this didn’t sound too terse, but I really am busy today. I appreciate your input and I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, but – like you – I am bound by my conscience on this issue.
I lol’d at the person who thought you weren’t allowed to answer. I’ve been around too long to think that!
I’m sorry if my comments have been aggressive. I’m just so frustrated by this whole election and it grieves me to read that some of my fellow Christians might be allowing someone who I believe to be truely evil to come into office.
I’ve had a (similar) debate with the Alan Keyes folk at ARL who also don’t believe McCain is pro-life enough. It really gets me frustrated because I can see the argument for not wanting to actively vote for someone you don’t completely agree with, but I just can’t come to peace with passively voting in someone who is so completely against any sort of Christian value.
Also, I although I am a very traditional woman, I believe that women’s roles do often extend outside the home. When we look to the biblical models of women, we see industrious women who are aiding in their families support financially. It is a bit hard to extrapolate this to our modern society, but I believe that parents working in coroporation to raise their children (as you and Perry seem to do when he will bring the children into work or you teach them a skill) is what God has in mind for us.
I believe that there ARE things that seperate the sexes, but I do not think that this precludes women from leadership. Sarah Palin is not running to be a spiritual leader, but rather a leader of our country. The fact that she prayerfully considers her leadership is a blessing. Deborah’s fall came from claiming that SHE was the one who saved her country instead of God, not her actual role in leadership. I think that a humble servent who gives God the glory over the prosperity of our country would be a blessing for our nation, regardless of that leaders gender.
Someone said: “The other thing I don’t get is we just came through 8 years with a self-proclaimed, pro-life Christian and Roe v Wade is just as much the law of the land as ever. What’s all this hope people are putting in a VP?!”
Please keep in mind that our abortion laws didn’t come from the Presidency or Congress… they came from the Supreme Court. A President can push through all the anti-abortion laws he wants. They will be taken through the courts and most likely struck down. The only way we can truly improve the abortion laws in the USA is to overturn Roe vs. Wade. The only way to overturn it is to get enough Supreme Court justices that will vote that way. Thanks to Bush, we have John Roberts and Samuel Alito, both of whom would happily vote to overturn Roe vs Wade if given the chance.
McCain and Palin are both prolife. McCain has voted against public money going to support abortion. He has a 0% rating from NARAL. He has promised to put justices on the Supreme court who will vote to overturn Roe vs. Wade.
On the other hand, we have Obama who won’t even vote to protect a baby after they have lived through an abortion. His NARAL rating is 100%. He has promised to push through legislation making abortion the law of the land. That would mean abortion would be legal not only because of the courts, but also because of Congress. It would make it that much harder to outlaw abortion later.
I understand yours and Perry’s positions and support your right to express it. But I disagree with you and will be proud to vote for McCain/Palin in November. Even the Bible allows for the occasional Deborah. Perhaps Palin is being used for such as time as this?
Most of the arguments I am hearing are, “She is a woman, so she has no place in the White House. She needs to be home with her children.” It seems to me that people are completely overlooking the fact that Obama is a baby-killer, who thinks that children are a punishment, and he is all for our country becoming that of a communistic society! Has a woman in office completely overshadowed the evilness of Obama? I believe that it is better when men are in governmental office. However, I am not naive enough to think that God can’t use a woman with a family. I would much rather support a Christian woman in office than I would a baby-killer. I don’t believe that having a woman in office will bring God’s judgement on America. I do believe that having a man in charge that approves of abortion will bring judgement, however. And God has used women in public office before. When men would not step up to the plate, he used Deborah. I believe that America is in the same position. Our men are not stepping up to the plate, so who are we to say that God can’t use a woman?
Thank you, Kim and Perry! I have found very few… and I do mean VERY FEW conservative Christians that agree with me on this issue. You are a rare breath of fresh air!
I didn’t delve nearly as deep into this issue on my blog and I have received untold amounts of hateful mail from people I love and respect saying many of the things that have been mentioned in your comments so far.
I’m shocked and appalled that so many Christians are buying this bill of goods without batting an eyelash. Wow. We’re in more trouble as a nation than I thought!
The way I see it is this. God is sovereign, right? So he mapped out exactly who would be in these 2008 elections. McCain/Palin and Obama/Biden. Those ARE the only 2 choices, and God saw them fit, for whatever reason. There is no other choice. Baldwin is not going to get elected. The choice is McCain or Obama.
We know Obama, at best, is a baby killer who views children as punishment, like Cassandra said. At worst, he has a sketchy background regarding his Muslim affiliation and could be pure evil. Since God ordained the nominees, I say we all be smart and do whatever we can to keep Obama out of office. Voting for Baldwin isn’t going to cut it.
It’s not our place to say what is appropriate regarding Palin. She is under her husband and Christ. They are her only heads, not us. From what I’ve seen, her husband fully supports her running for office, and is incredibly proud of her. So there you go. Her head(s) approve, even though some of us don’t, but our opinions don’t matter.
What a great post and the article you linked to was great, too. I have been thinking a lot about this issue since I read your first post on the subject, and it has been a conduit for the Holy Spirit to convict me. I was going to vote for Obama because I thought HIM the “lesser of two evils” but I am glad that we are called to higher than that! I have a lot of friends who will be voting for McCain/Palin and I am glad to have this information on hand since it makes some excellent points. Again, thank you for taking the time to write about this. I look forward to many more insightful articles.
PS: Perry, which verse in Romans exactly says the church replaces Israel as God’s people? Just curious.
wowzer,
You have ruffled some feathers, lol
I have alllot to say on this and will say it definately in the polls. I agree allot with what Kristi said because It is closest to how I would say it, I believe that my God is soveriegn, I know we have a say in our votes but since there are only 2 mere candidates that stand a chance we have to go with our best choice, or who we feel is our better choice, by how God directs us biblically.
And really in the scheme of things we can debate all day long but ultimately in the end it isn’t going to be who we all want it to be that is just a fact.
In my heart I know what is right, and though we all need to come together to that end, we won’t, so we have to keep striving and uniting to do what we feel God places on our hearts and in our lives to do.
Perry and Kim, I totally unequivically respect what your belief system for your family, it is not mine to judge. I love the way you take a stand for what you believe, you have made me look at some things in my life and ministry and just as a person.
I will always have respect when visiting here though I may not always totally agree with everything.
Blessings
Maryjo- Obama voted, (I believe twice) against legislation that protected the life of a baby who survived an attempted abortion. He would rather have the doctors and nurses put the surviving baby in a closet until the baby dies. Which is called infanticide. And we want this man leading our country? This ‘one issue’ is huge enough (and the most important one, IMO)- not to mention his socialistic agenda.
I think it’s reasonable to prioritize issues. The alternative to McCain and Palin is a candidate who, as others have stated, supports infanticide. For me it’s not even a question, I would be heartsick if such a man were elected to the highest office in our land, and I will be voting for the only candidates capable of stopping him from being President. I will also be voting for the only candidates who would appoint Supreme Court justices who would not see abortion as part of a non-existent “Constitutional right to privacy.”
God knows that we are each doing our best to be Biblical and vote our consciences, and I believe that God will fully understand and approve of my casting my vote on the basis I stated above.
Thank you for letting me share an alternative point of view.
Best wishes,
Laura
Respectfully disagreeing here.
Tami, just because some of us don’t agree with you and Kim doesn’t mean we “don’t read our bibles” or aren’t born again Christians. We just simply have different opinions about different issues. Some of us see no problem in voting for McCain/Palin, and others do. Does God allow godly people to have differing opinions on certain matters? Ultimately, we are responsible to God in our decisions. John Owen once said “only what God has commanded in His word should be regarded as binding; in all else there may be liberty of actions.”
rock on sister! didnt even read the above comments either. ROCK ON!
heres the deal on the lesser of two evils that even great pastors are trying to get me to “digest”:
If i made 3 batches of choc. chip cookies and in one batch the entire chocolate was actually pieces of dog poop replaced instead of the choc. chips and the 2nd batch was only 35% dog poop and some chocolate mixed in, and the third batch was pure chocolate in the cookies, what batch would you eat knowing what batches contained what?
DUH! its a no brainer… you would choose batch number 3 and plain and simple I will be eating batch number 3 by voting for a 3rd party candidate!
Thank you very much!
Einwechter gets it wrong in his most recent post as well as the previous article referred to here and by Doug Phillips. The Ex 18 and Deut 1 texts both refer to the advice given Moses by Jethro. While good advice, it is a shaky hermeneutic at best to take wisdom from a non-Jewish priest as a mandate direct from God. There are other scriptures that are salient, but these two – on which his arguments essentially hang their hat – are fair enough example of the egregious way he oversteps the boundaries of scriptural interpretation.
The description of men does assume normative male leadership, but it does NOT mandate it — and it is false logic and a twisting of scripture to your own viewpoint to claim God’s overt prohibition of women based on such a text! A male pro-noun may be descriptive of a normative case…but it may well be, and often is, simply easier than saying he/she every blessed time. And it hardly explains away Deborah, either.
So if we throw out the pro-noun strawman, what ARE the qualities listed for rulers? Capable, fear God, trustworthy, hate dishonest gain (Ex 18)….not showing partiality…not afraid of any man (Deut 1)… hmmm, Sarah Palin is lookin’ pretty close so far. Prov. 31:8-9 says something about speaking up for those who cannot speak for themselves…maybe that would be the handicapped or unborn?
Proverbs 28:12 says “…but when the wicked rise to power, MEN go into hiding.” If I take Einwechter logic, does this mean that women will be the only ones standing in plain view when Obama takes office? I pray you misspoke when you preferred him in office!!!! My brother, my sister, listen to your own words! Perhaps instead we should be a little less rigid about making God’s word fit into our personal systems, and have a little more grace in talking about how best to “overcome evil with good.”
Yes my wife stays at home (schooling our 9), no she wouldn’t run for VP, yes I’ll vote for Palin/McCain, no she/he isn’t perfect. Please let’s do away with the narrowness and snappy judgments, and take the time to debate our options like brothers and sisters…
Mr Peterson,
Exo 18:24 So Moses listened to the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said.
Exo 18:25 Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.
Exo 18:26 And they judged the people at all times. Any hard case they brought to Moses, but any small matter they decided themselves.
Exo 18:27 Then Moses let his father-in-law depart, and he went away to his own country.
Jethro is never presented as anything other than a God fearing father in law with good advice. There is no negative commentary about “Non-Jewish preists” just the note that moses did, what he said, and if you read through the rest of the Old Testament you will see over and over the organization stuck.
No in fact they are simply the cornerstone of the arguments – the fact that all Scritpures in the entire Bible refer to leadership in the masculine and to leaders as men – even Proverbs 31 talks about the wife’s husband sitting in the gates, a mark of civic leadership. The context is on Bill’s side here.
Or maybe when the Bible says he it means he, and when it says husband it means husband, and when it says 6 days it means 6 days and when it says “Our Father” it doesn’t mean our Mother.
You are tossing out on its ear hundreds of years of wise counsellors in elders and pastors from the past when you press this modern egalitarian view of the use of gendered words in Scripture. I’ll stand with Calvin and the Puritans on this one.
I think there is plenty of weight in all these Scriptures especially when you combine them with 1 Cor 11:3 and the pattern of male leadership found in the garden of Eden itself before the fall.
Besides are you REALLY suggesting it was too hard or inconvienent for the LORD God of heaven to have said “women” or “people” if that is what he meant? Really? Remember what Bill said in his article? There are Hebrew words for mankind.
Really so you think the fear of the Lord includes goverment funded sex education, or distributing condoms to teenagers? You think the fear of the Lord includes a life of the mother exception for abortions? How about state funded education where God is excluded? Is that included in the fear of the Lord?
Yes and Proverbs 31 also talks about the wife’s HUSBAND sittting in the gates – she is taking care of the house and he is helping to rule the city.
Also on the one hand I applaud her for living out her Prolife convictions by not killing her own child (does that strike anyone as weird …saying “YEA she didn’t kill her baby”) on the other hand what did she do to stop abortion in Alaska in the 2 years she was governor?
Neither my wife or I ever said we preferred him in office. We said we would prefer him in office with a vigilant prayerful repentant church over a McCain victory wherein a slumbering church thinks it has won a Victory and does not hold those in power accountable – which in my opinion has happend under the current President.
Umm ok you lost me here…because last time I checked I was the one saying men means men not women….so I’m the one twisting Scripture? I would suggest those who would have us vote for John ” I never said no to planned parenthood funding” McCain are urging the church to do a little evil achieve good. The question sir is what are the Lord’s standards for voting and if McCain or Palin or anyone does not meet then we may not vote for them and still be obedient to our Lord.
I’m happy to discuss Scripture with you but for you to come onto my blog and accuse me of gracelessness while lecturing me to be nicer is a bit ironic to me.
I’m not angry but I also don’t think I’m the one with forcing things into the mold.
Cheers
Eric Pedersen brings up a good point with the case of Deborah. Judges 4 says she was leading Israel. Later, she is credited with a national military victory when the male general was too fearful to lead on his own. How do you reconcile this with your view that God only approves of male leaders in the civic circle?
Wow. Interesting discussion. Alas, on this one issue, I respectfully disagree with you Kim.
While dh and I are both disconcerted by the thought of a mother with a 4 month old taking on the Vice Presidency, we (well, I, as he’s not a citizen yet) will be voting for McCain. The way we see it, we are stuck with the two parties for now, and McCain won’t take us quite as far to h*** in a handbasket as Obama will.
As much as I think Palin should be home with her children, the fact is, even if I don’t vote for her, she will still be Governor of Alaska. And as far as careers go, she seems to do an amazing job of bringing her home and family with her, rather than leaving them behind.
Now, if she were looking for position as head pastor, elder, or some other church office, I would be with you all the way. If we lived in a Biblical theocracy, there would be no consideration of a woman in any office. But here we are in a secular nation, with a secular government. We want freedom to live our lives as Christians, and we want influence, but every attempt I have ever seen on the small scale to make an exclusively theocratic community has been a miserable failure. Imagine the mess we’d make trying to do that on a national level! I’ll wait for Jesus to make that dream a reality.
I do find it interesting that basically the same arguments are being made against Palin by liberal feminists. I wonder if they realize they are lining up with y’all when they say “How can she possibly do a good job of being both VP and a mom?”. If nothing else, such an attitude from rabid feminists is good for a chuckle. :p
And on the issues themselves, some of the things you say Palin supports, liberals hate her because they think she *doesn’t* support them (in particular abortion for the mother’s life, sex-ed/contraception, and gay marriage). Interesting.
Deborah was credited with the national victory? Where? Didn’t Jael, the woman who didn’t leave her home but killed Sisera get more honor?
Barak asked Deborah to go WITH him. She did. She didn’t lead the army. As the prophet God was speaking through at the time, it would have been handy to have her near. I have my honest doubts she took actual part in the battle.
At the end of the battle, Barak and Deborah sing a song of victory honoring God. Together. The song actually goes:
“Awake, awake, Deborah, awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead they captivity captive, though son of Abinoam.” [Jd 5:12]
So again, here is Deborah singing and Barak “leading”. There is a lot about Jael in this song, but she didn’t leave her tent-home to do her incredible part so I doubt she is of as much interest….
Then as far as we know, Deborah WENT BACK HOME where if someone wanted to inquire of God, they could go to her under the palm tree. [Judges 4:5] Unlike Samuel, she wasn’t out and about offering sacrifices or going from city to city judging. Funny, that.
Sorry if I sound “snarky” as somone else put it somewhere back in the comments. I always hear about Deborah & Esther and honestly, from reading my Bible, I don’t see the huge deal. God used them. He still uses women! Daily. I’m not sure where I’m supposed to read radical ideas into these stories. Esther, who I hear the most about these days, approached her husband with a request. Yes, it was a risky thing in that culture – but she was still inside HER home, approaching HER husband with grace and humility.
I do not like the idea that if I don’t vote for one of the evils then I’m automatically voting for the worst one. Is God in control or not? Is voting honestly my ‘duty’ as a follower of Christ??? Does it rank up there with prayer and fasting for a believer? Really?
I’m just not sure …. I like the quote by Spurgeon. I made it my new email signature. The exact wording of his (a lot of people have said simular things):
“Of two evils, choose neither.”
And that, my friends, is not sin, even if Obama is elected! I MUST be able to take a stand for what is right. No matter what I am threatened with!
Abortion has occured since very early times. Cheyenne Indians practiced it, the Babylonians practiced it, people sin. And they will continue to sin wickedly, no matter if it is legal or not. If we legalize same-sex marriage, I honestly don’t think the number of gay couples will jump drastically – they will just be more open about it (is that possible?). I hate the fact that it might be legalized, but changing laws are a symptom of the advanced stages of a disease, not a law that is going to multiply the already wicked tendancies of people….
Now, if anyone responds to this, I probably won’t get a chance to answer back. I’m pretty busy but I snatched some time to type out my thoughts. I hope they give some food for thought.
Lori,
I can see with 20/20 clarity looking backward what exceptions God made to the rules he established.
Let me ask you a question.
Do I make decisions now based on those?
Christ used 5 loaves and 2 fish to feed 5000. Should I plan a 5000 person conference and “in faith” bring only 5 loaves and 2 fish?
God raised up Deborah to be a deliverer of Israel, He tells us so in His word. That is HIS prerogative. When I make decisions – like who to vote for – I must use the clear principles and precepts not the Divine exceptions as my guide.
God may do as he wills. I must do what he commands.
[...] are choosing either not to vote, or to cast a vote for a third party candidate, KimC, at In a Shoe, expresses their sentiment when she says: It’s trite but true: a vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for [...]
Suppose God chose Palin to have a role similar to Deborah’s for our country? Isn’t that also his perogative?
As far as I know, Israel didn’t know that God raised up Deborah to be a deliverer of Israel. They didn’t have the book of Judges to read and say, “Hey, this is what it says here”. God tells US that in his word, but Judges is a historical book. Not prophetic, at least in that circumstance. My guess is that if given the chance, you wouldn’t have like Deborah either, and would have condemned her, just ike you’re condemning Palin.
“does that strike anyone as weird …saying “YEA she didn’t kill her baby”
It absolutely sounds weird and is IMHO a sign that the church is in dire straights when one must congratulate someone for doing what is right instead of simply admonishing it’s members to do right as God commands. I once read that you should not congratulate someone for doing what is right, that doing right is too be expected and congratulations were meant when one goes beyond what is right to do something exceptional.
Strongly but humbly disagreeing with both Perry and Kim.
God is sovereign and He will have who He has, whether we like it or not. I will be voting for Mc Cain/Palin and have peace with that. It’s your blog and you are entitled to your oppinion. :0)
Trite it is. A Christian voting for, and even whole heartedly promoting the McCain-Palin ticket is not an endorsement of every position and philosophy of the ticket, and every personal choice that each member of the ticket has made in their family. It is a statement that this ticket represents the best choice, among those viable, to forward and promote a Christian worldview. The Presidential election, as long as humans are the candidates, will always be a choice of “the lesser of two evils.” The “lesser of two evils” is a verbal expression in the English language adapted from Stockton’s 19th century short story, “The Lady or the Tiger.” The story does not have any Christian connotation or lesson. The expression is used to describe two choices, neither of which is ideally preferred. To count both Republican and Democrat tickets as evil, and some other choice at some other time as not evil is a head in the sand view of the world. Did you vote for George W. Bush? All the while Karen Hughes had authority over men, and was gone from her household for days and weeks on end? Was the choice of GWB good, and yet now the choice of Sarah Palin bad? Barack Obama is flawed, John McCain is flawed, and Sarah Palin is flawed. Voting for political leaders in America is a “best choice” decision.
Hi Perry, Kim and family:
I was momentarily tempted to consider supporting McCain (holding my nose over him), just for Palin’s sake. The feeling passed quick enough.
Here’s why I am sticking with Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution Party (www.Baldwin08.com), and not ‘taking he bait’ on Palin:
1. McCain or the system will change her to be like him, not likely vice-versa. He’s not actually Pro-Life, punting every time he could have been truly Pro-Live. Any votes showing such we’re ‘for show’ votes on bills that had 0 % chance of ending or threatening abortion rights.
2) She may just be the ‘attractive side of evil’. I’ll go easy on that one. More likely, she’s being used as ‘the attractive side of evil’ , the bait upon the hook that is McPain, I mean McBomber, I mean McCain.
3) I know our Biblical views on home & family, while well supported Scripturally, are not the ideal to which Sarah Palin adheres. Truly, our faith is, many ways, paradoxical. I am convinced there is more beauty & reward in heaven for a woman who is a keeper at home, loving Christ by serving her family, than one who is a powerful politician. This sounds crazy, I know to those nurtured on worldly philiosophy. I am blessed to have such a wife, she (and I together) is making a daily mockery of the power of the Devil, and discipling our children for Christ. 5 beatiful children will, in 10 years or so, begin making (by the grace of the LORD) homes and families that will be part of the next Reformation !
(Quite a turnabout my up upbringing with a working mom – our home is a miracle compared to that !)
There is no way for that to be her goal if she had a full time job, as Sarah will. She will be trading away all the Godly influence she could have for a job that, while high profile, will simply not return the eternal benefits. It may be that she will be used to be a Deborah (if God allows her in, I pray it is so…), but I cannot act as if that is the normative pattern of Scripture, and vote on that basis.
The last thing concerning me is that even our criticisms of Palin’s being picked as VP due to the obviation of the biblical norm to be a ‘keeper at home’, if left at that, is naive.
What are Christians being asked to swallow, under either a Obama or a McCain administration ?
What we are witnessing is the raising up of the ‘Almighty State’, wherein the US Government is increasingly being asked to perform God like feats for citizens, a complete turnabout of ‘The American View’ we once held.
It’s important to note that if Palin as an outspoken Christian is used to bait the “hook of Statism” and provide cover for it & to be an apoligist of it, (as is likely to happen), that will be evidence of a worse Judgement against us, than if Obama does it by remaining true to his ‘wrong principles’.
(Scripture: “It must needs be that offences come, but woe unto him (her?) through which they come….”)
May I post an insightful comment by Chris Ortiz of the http://www.Chalcedon.edu Blog, on this danger:
“While both mainstream America, and Conservative Christians–including the Reformed community–were focused on the gender of the Republican vice-presidential nominee, the Feds moved to nationalize Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Do you have any idea what this means? Do you have any idea what we’re facing economically? Believe you me, when things go South economically, you’ll risk looking foolish and blind with an arm full of Biblical arguments about how a woman cannot serve as a civil magistrate.
Let’s not take our eyes off the ball. I’m not sure why Christian ministries are worrying about tributary issues like the ACLU, or how many founding fathers were Christians. There is really no need to belabor the fact that Sarah Palin should be at home with her children. We should put aside these hot button issues and keep our audiences focused on the real threats to liberty.
Our real enemies have not yet shown their face. Instead, they’ve brought out Sarah Palin to focus the attention of the American people on mainstream politics while the economy suffers, the state is totalizing its control over the American system, and more war looms on the horizon.”
end quote
I think this needs to be emphasized, along with our stand for the Biblical roles of men & women – that Statism is really Idolatry,
We evangelicals, have the reputation of sometimes objecting to Statism when presided over by Democrats, but tend to be blind to it when run by Republicans !
I pray we recognize and repent of the mixed message this sends, allowing the ‘enemies of Israel to gainsay against the LORD GOD.” May we become zealous to see God & His Christ get the glory, that we now sacrifice to the State !
Your brother in Christ,
David Bazley
Nacogdoches, TX
The problem I have noticed above all in the whole situation is the seeming lack of prayer all the way around. The reformed people have made up their mind that she isn’t biblically qualified so that discounts that whole ticket. The christians but not quite so reformed crowd are picking as the lesser of the two evils. I haven’t heard one single call from any of the LEADERS of either side actually asking for prayer over the matter — if there are any calls then they are definitely one in a million mixed in the why’s and why nots of reasons for voting! Everyone seems to be thinking it’s a done deal and it won’t do any good to pray. Why wait until the election is over to pray? Why not start right now?
I am not in the crowd that says she isn’t biblically qualified because I don’t agree with Einwechter’s conclusions that Deborah wasn’t really a judge (and when looking at commentaries Neither did Calvin, Wesley, Henry, and several others — never mind the fact that the Bible states she was). However, I’m also not in the crowd that says “Yeah, Palin, I’ll vote for her tomorrow.”
I know that God answers prayers and I know that God has used many unlikely things to bring to pass His great glories! Perhaps now is such a time. That is exactly why we should all be praying right now for His guidance. Afterall, it is He who puts into power He wants there, and if she is elected then it is by His will as scripture says… and then that kinda shoots out the window the discussion on whether or not it is Biblical anyway!
Pray without ceasing!! Seek God’s will! Ya can’t go wrong with that!
God bless,
Sallie
If every Christian & serious American citizen were TRULY educated on the Founding Fathers view of Law & Government, this debate would be moot.
In our homeschool program, we’ve found the program, “Institute on the Constitution: A study on Christianity & the Law of the Land” to be worth it’s weight in gold !
So many fundamental Truths contained in the Constitution & Declaration of Independence are powerful enough to make the two major parties lies & half truths vanish like smoke, if we only knew & applied them.
If you visit & peruse the program, you’ll see why :
http://www.IOTConline.com
I also was blessed to attend the ‘Witherspoon School of Law & Public Policy’, sponsored by Doug Phillips & Vision Forum – highly recommended, not just for prospective lawyers, but any Christan who desires to be salt & light in our era.
For Christ & Liberty,
David Bazley, Nacogdoches, Texas
PS: All of Houston & East Texas are taking a massive hit from IKE, please pray for us to see God’s hand in this. (this is being written from Generator power….)
It will inconvence many, but some have either died or lost their homes.
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.
Thank you for posting the Voddie Baucham clip as well.
Don’t forget the fact that a man who believes in infanticide and his wife as well does- is a man who is rotten to his very core. All of the other issues aside is this someone you trust has the very heart of a nation in his mind?
Amen!~
I have been saddened by how many of the homeschooling SAHM mama in my community are excited about Mrs. Palin’s appointment. Actually, I’ve wept.
I posted a quote by Doug Phillips on my blog.
[...] a woman much wiser than me said it best. “I would rather have Obama in office while Christians pray fervently for national repentance [...]
Obama does not believe in infanticide. That is a lie. America is no closer to overturning Roe V Wade than when Bush was elected. Politicians use guns, abortion, and religiion as wedge issues ot get your vote and then abandon the christian community when you are not needed. I believe that Sarah Palin is inadequate not based on her gender, but just about everything else. I can’t believe she would throw her daughter in the spotlight like that at a time when stress would be harmful to her pregnancy and she would need her mother more than ever. I don’t know many pro-life women (I’m personally a christian for choice) that would have an “amnio” when there is no chance they would abort. The “amnio” itself could cause a miscarriage. She’s pro-family but not too interested in caring for her own. During her pregancy with baby Trig, her water began in Texas, she then gave a speech and flew back to Alaska to give birth. The airline staff was not even notified that she was in labor. This is risky behavoir for a mom with any common sense. I’m baffled by the doublespeak of Dodson, Perkins etc. I don’t agree with them on quite a few issues but I respected them as brothers in Christ that were sincere in the beliefs. They now appear to be republican mouth pieces.
For the time will come when they will not l endure sound doctrine;
I appologize for the typo. There should not be an “I’ between (not) and (endure)
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
Hello all it’s been 7 days with no laptop or satellite both fixed today. I hope to respond to several comments soon as well as MintheGaps post on qualifications.
Thanks for your patience.
MJ,
It is well document that Barack Hussein Obama is a public supporter of “partial birth abortions.
If you go to google and type “define:infanticide” the most prevalent definition is “the act of killing an infant”, further if you take a look at the medically certified as correct illustration below from the National Right to Life website you will see clearly why it is no lie to say MR Obama is in favor of infanticide.
We may agree or disagree on many things but here on this blog killing a baby is infanticide whether you agree or not.
Perry:
As gruesome as that drawing above is, thanks for posting it. We need to see the Truth !
Consider that NEITHER McCain or Obama has the guts, honesty or moral will to openly & boldly oppose this act of murder.
What does this say about out desire to honor Christ & ‘do unto others as we would have done to us’, and to choose leaders who do the same ?
Seriously, the false dilemma of ‘either / or’ (manifest in our “Presidential contest) is a bad joke being played on the church & all of American society.
The steadfast refusal of most Christians to believe God could work a miracle (with our active obedence), and elect a Chuck Baldwin, shows our faith in the Scriptures to be non-existent.
This would be a simple thing compared to most Biblical ‘providential events’ or miracles.
Wasn’t the defeat of Egypt by a bunch of slaves & a mostly discredited (in the eyes of Israel & Egypts court) leader, Moses, totally without precedent, yet it happened ?
Wasn’t the defeat of the British Empire, that ruled the entire world in the 18th century, by the tiny band of Colonials similarly miraculous ?
Absolutely, yet Christian men (and their wives & children) doing their duty was REQUIRED, then God worked the miracle.
God’s judgement is pounding America flat.
Did anyone notice that hurrican IKE smashed into the Florida keys exactly 7 years to the day on the anniversary of 9-11-2001 ?
Now, a week & a half later, America is facing an economic meltdown that many experts admit will make 1929’s depression look tame. Our ‘leaders’ are rushing to nationalize almost all the failing banks & institutions.
We’re just a few weeks away from having a total ‘command economy’ exactly like we excoriated communist Russia for having.
My how the ‘worm has turned’ !!
Seven years to repent of our nations evils, and the (visible) church has learned next to nothing about obedience to God.
And still we think we can play footsie with God’s standards, mock his Covenant, twist his Scriptures, ask for the ‘lesser of two evils’ and receive His blessing ?
Unless and until we in the Church repent of our ways, we will continue to reap judgement by the trainload.
This goes far beyond ‘who we vote for’ but is by no means disconnected from the issue.
They are related, as a ‘low oil presssure’ warning light on your dash is to impending engine failure.
So, let’s not miss the larger issue facing America: Our nation has embraced a Pluralistic ‘god of your choice’ ethic. IOW, we now worship false gods.
The public manifestation of that is “Staism”, or seeing the ‘State’ as the arbiter & source of all authority’.
Probably because most Christians today ignore the Biblical role of Christ as present ‘Prophet, Priest & King’, do we allow the State to usurp His roles.
This is the poverty of modern Evangelicalism.
Obama & McCain are two who both, in their somewhat distinct ways, are priests of the “almighty State’.
McCain craftily uses the language of patriotism to mask his promotion of the State, even now using evanglical terms (without the power of God) to fool the (unwise & untrained) faithful.
The contest is more like “Baal vs Dagon” than anything else.
No, I’m not saying that choosing Chuck Baldwin as President will change this overnight.
I am saying that our refusal to consider voting for a Godly man, despite the apparent odds against it, and our approval of an either overly evil man, Obama, or covertly evil man, McCain, shows our Spiritural & Moral blindness, not to mention our ignorance of the present reign of Christ over all the nations, including America.
Lord, may you open our eyes to Christ’s authority !
Your fellow servant,
David B.
David,
Thanks for you most recent comment I agree with you that it is a sad commentary on our modern faith or rather good proof of what we put faith in as a people and a church.
In a previous comment you quoted Chris Ortiz and and said
Well I can’t agree with you or Mr Ortiz on this point. If the family is (as Rushdoony argued) the foundational social building block and if we as modern Christians are losing the very battle for our families then those who are fighting to hold the line on orthodox positions of the family are closer to fighting the “real war” than those who are decrying the federal leviathan and all it’s abuses.
CORRECTIONS (to my prior post):
“”The steadfast refusal of most Christians to believe God could work a miracle (with our active obedence), and elect a Chuck Baldwin, shows our faith in the Scriptures to be non-existent. “”
I should have said “many”, not “most” above.
Didn’t mean to sound so ‘exclusivist’ – many Christians are waking up to our need to exercise diligence in choosing Godly leaders. But we have far to go……try http://www.IOTConline.com for a ’study on Christianity & the Law of the Land’ that helps.
Also, It would have been better to have said: “…shows our faith in the Scriptures to be ‘theoretical & disconnected from reality’, rather than ‘non-existent’.
It’s easy to believe in miracles of another time, place & people.
Much harder to believe miracles that require hard duty of us, most always in direct contravention of the spirit of the age & apparent contrary evidence in front of us.
‘Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen……’ Hebrews 11:1
Best Regards,
David B.
However, it does not change the fact that a vote for anyone but McCain (unless you voted with the green party…which seems unlikely
) is a vote for Obama.
That’s not a fact at all. It’s a myth and not even logical.
Thank you so much for writing this. I have written about this issue (and many other related ones) on my blog and gotten nothing but anger from Christians about it. The most common comment is that I am a hypocrite, and so is everyone who feels Sarah Palin should not be in the position she is in because there would be less people decrying it if it were a democrat. Personally, I feel christians who fight against abortion, homosexuality and other issues are hypocrites when it comes to this issue. It’s a matter of idolatry: they would never vote for Clinton because she is a woman, but Palin is a “republican,” and part of the party they worship, so it’s okay.
It also comes down to the fact that we have been totally brainwashed into believing that one party really is more christian-friendly than the other. The truth is that one party tries to APPEAR more christian-friendly than the other – and the democrats are quickly catching on and catching up.
Your words about voting for the lesser of two evils still being a vote for evil I wrote word for word on my blog today, before I read this post. I was just so encouraged by you being able to stand on your principles. Thank you, thank you.
Christians need to use their MINDS as well as their HEARTS. I understand and agree with the tragedy and heartbreak we all feel about abortion, and this country’s lack of value it places on life. I have 8 children. I love Jesus. I wish abortion were stopped today. But, in voting, we have to be good stewards. We have to take it upon ourselves to understand the times, and not let an emotion-spiked and ill-informed email or blog post, make up our mind for us.
Voting is a choice of available options. Choices between available options requires stewardship of the Christian. Christian stewardship.
Voting for Obama to sort of “get on with” the judgment that God has for America is putting oneself not in the place of created, with the obligation we have to use stewardship to make our choices between alternatives, but instead puts ourselves in the place of God – presuming to know all of God’s ways, and his decision-making process. Clearly a violation of one of the most fundamental principles of scripture.
Isn’t the “lesser of two evils” still evil?
The “lesser of two evils” is a verbal expression in the English language adapted from Stockton’s 19th century short story, “The Lady or the Tiger.” The story does
not have any Christian connotation or lesson. The expression is used to describe two choices, neither of which is ideally preferred.
To count both Republican and
Democrat tickets as evil, and some other choice as not evil, but good is a sophomoric misunderstanding of the times, and a profound misunderstanding of scripture.
Barack Obama is flawed.
John McCain is flawed. And,
Chuck Baldwin is flawed.
One would make the choice of Constitution Party candidate Chuck Baldwin not because anyone believes that he would be “sin free” during his term, but that he would, to the best of his ability, govern and pursue policies in alignment with a Christian worldview. Any reasonable person, probably Chuck included, would also agree that Chuck will make a mistake or two while in office, and he may succumb certain sins while in office.
So, then that is a “best choice” decision. In this fallen world, we are often presented with choices that fall short of ideal. Chuck Baldwin is then, really the lesser of three (or more) evils. Each of us, in our sin, creates this kind of environment, either directly or indirectly.
Less than ideal choices to a dilemma many times are the result of a situation that our own sin created. Indirectly, our own sin as humans created a separation between us and God, the result of which is the curse on us and our world, which imperfect options to dilemmas abound.
Use your MINDS. THINK! Don’t just LOVE the Bible, KNOW the Bible. ACCURATELY handle the Word of Truth.
From Baldwin08.com,
“And if Congress refuses to pass Dr. Paul’s bill, I will use the constitutional power of the Presidency to deny funds to protect abortion clinics.”
Is Baldwin advocating abortion clinic bombings?
Is that OK with anyone?
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