Wednesday I spent 6 hours on the road, a little short on sleep. I had some young companions and the drive was broken by the usual bathroom breaks, nursing breaks, and a stop for gas/food – not to mention the normal chit-chat, so I didn’t have to fight drowsiness.
Today I was behind the wheel again, this time with much less sleep. Fortunately I had Greg Bahnsen to keep me company. We love Greg Bahnsen’s lectures about philososphy and how to defend the Christian worldview against those who hold to atheism, evolution, and other fairy tales.
We love it so much that when I started playing it, there were calls from the back of the van to turn up the volume. Dr. Bahnsen is brilliant, but he is also entertaining and easy to understand. He makes you feel smart. You can do this.
His primary approach in debating worldviews is to direct the discussion back to its foundation – to force his opponent to acknowledge the presuppositions upon which all of his arguments rest. There is no neutrality, and atheists are no less creatures of faith than Christians. All of their beliefs, like ours, are ultimately based upon one underlying foundation. The question is, “What is your ultimate authority?”
I wanted to take notes as he spoke, but I know better. Typing/texting while driving = Colossally Bad Idea. No lecture necessary on that point.
There was something he said and repeated for emphasis, and I really wanted to remember it but I forgot. I’ll have to listen to that message again. I was more careful with the next statement that caught my attention, and repeated it to myself several times as he elaborated and expounded: All ultimate authorities must be self-authenticating.
Did you catch that?
When unbelievers ask us how we know the Bible is the true, infallible Word of the One True God, we can answer that we know because the Bible tells us. When you’re talking about an ultimate authority, you’re at the top of the food chain. If you can go any higher, then you’re not at the top yet.
This applies to unbelievers as well. Ask how they know what they know. Keep asking, “But how do you know?” until they reach the top.
Is it science? But how do they know the current research and theories are correct?
Is it their own eyes? Don’t they believe in many things they’ve never personally witnessed, like the existence of cells, atoms, or 3 toed sloths in the wild?
Is it their own opinion, or the majority opinion? Opinions change.
For most unbelievers, it comes down to logic in the end. And how do they defend the assertation that logic is the true, final answer? By use of logic, of course. How else? Their ultimate authority, like ours, is self-authenticating.
The difference is that they have faith in the authority they choose, while objecting to ours. This is not logical; it’s arbitrary, a foundational flaw in their reasoning. This is a failure to apply sound logic, their self-proclaimed god. You’ve got ‘em now.
Intrigued? You should be. He also clearly explains why Christians can appeal to logic but unbelievers can’t, and countless other such traps that your hapless victims will set for you and walk right into. OK, maybe I’m being a little flippant, but I’m not exaggerating. Now you have a taste of why we love these lectures.
If you’re on the Vision Forum mailing list, you should have received an email today with a single-use code to save 20% on any purchase. Use it to buy the Christian Worldview Training Set (22 CDs). Just do it.
No code? Use mine, if nobody else beat you to it: 93CB34547KNL (exp. 5/31)
Somebody beat you to it? Maybe another kind soul will share her code in the comments?
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Are we allowed to use our 20% off coupons for the Normandy tour??? I got one for doing the survey, but it won’t let me use it!
Gabrielle,
I think it said the coupon would be good for a certain range of dates. Did you make sure you the beginning date had already passed?
There is only one problem with your example… Where did the Bible come from? Who says that this collection of books (as opposed to other books from Biblical times) is the inspired, infallible word of God? Jesus didn’t leave the Apostles with a book when He ascended into heaven. Where did the Bible come from? By what authority here on earth was the Bible established as the Word of God? What is your response to that authority?
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Just to clarify (but I completely agree with you and i AM intrigued in the lecture series)…when you say:
“The difference is that they have faith in the authority they choose, while objecting to ours.”
They are objecting to our faith, not our authority, right? Because objecting each other’s authority is the purpose of the argument…but objecting FAITH in it is not considered on their part…or am I totally off?
Thanks for this inspirational post! It comes in God’s perfect timing. My 20-yr-old brother-in-law is staying with us for a month while we are moving out and he has rejected the authority of God over his life, even though he is thoroughly educated in the Bible and reformed theology/doctrine like his brother (my husband). He simply states he’d rather do whatever he pleases as it is more fun and doesn’t understand living our lives to a Greater Authority. So, we have been praying that we will at least remind him of that truth and what it does mean personally…and that life outside of God’s plan is actually not so fun after all.
Anyway…
Lisa, from the perspective of the believer, I think you could say the authority and one’s faith in it are firmly linked.
They call us irrational because we affirm that the Bible is true on its own authority, but they want to do the same with the authority of their choice.
wait wait, you don’t believe in evolution? I guess I am surprised. How old do you think the earth is, and how long do you think humans have been on it, if you don’t mind me asking. I’m just wondering – for some reason I didn’t think your world view went quite that far.
jj,
I believe the Biblical account of creation, which says that God made everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th. According to Biblical history, this happened ~6,000 years ago.
Of course the earth looks older. God created mature plants, animals and people so why wouldn’t other parts of His creation manifest age as well? But there are many aspects of the world that actually point toward a young earth. It all depends on how you interpret the facts: are you assuming that evolution is true and looking for evidence to support your theory, or do you assume that God is real and see that “the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork”? (Ps. 19:1)
“When unbelievers ask us how we know the Bible is the true, infallible Word of the One True God, we can answer that we know because the Bible tells us.”
Sure sounds like circular reasoning to me. The Muslims also have a book that says the exact same thing. How come they are wrong and you are right?
Andrea,
There are several answers to your question. I’ll give you a few:
If you have another way to prove the veracity of your ultimate authority, then it’s not very ultimate, is it?
Maybe you should read the post again?
I love listening to Vision Forum CD’s while I’m driving. I have the Baby Conference CD’s in my car right now. The other day, I needed a root canal, and before it got started, the dentist motioned to my iPod and mentioned something about listening to my music. I said, “Actually, it’s not music but a sermon on helping your children choose good and refuse evil.” It ended up being a witnessing opportunity.
We are also HUGE fans of Bahnsen. Kids included. It’s fun to hear that someone else enjoys him…I’ve tried turning people onto him without much success. I think it’s because you have to THINK when you listen…not such a popular past time anymore. We loved this series the first time around…but got even MORE out of it the second and third time through. More “sticks” each time. Everyone should be grounded in this stuff. It’s great “home school” curriculum too…a MUST HAVE in my opinion!
Is it bad that I obey you when you go say buy something?!
haha
I was interested in this product and decided to do some more research. I like to learn more about the rational and logical support for my faith in God. I ascribe to the Thomas Jefferson direction to:
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.”
But I was disappointed to discover, after additional research, that Dr. Greg Bahnsen argued against the Christianity of the Mormon faith. So I’ll use my agency and not purchase this item.
I think that we are rapidly approaching a time in history when all godly people will need to stand together against those that would seek to destroy God. By this I mean, that Jews stand with Catholics, Mormons stand with Lutherans, Episcopalians stand with Protestants; that all godly people stand together to fight against a government that is increasingly anti-religion, to support each other against the tidal wave of a degrading and debasing society.
By all means, teach your children your faith. I’ll teach my children my faith. And we can each teach our children to love one another (which is clearly evidenced that you do by reading your blog).
I think it’s important to realize that the Bible is true and self-authenticating, but to also know that nonbelievers simply will not accept that in most cases. To truly argue for your faith, it’s necessary to have secular evidence for your case in addition to biblical evidence. Clearly, we shouldn’t argue only from a secular viewpoint, but nor can we assume that nonbelievers will be okay with the idea that the Bible is infallible. (That idea really is laughable unless God opens your eyes, isn’t it?)
To witness effectively, it is necessary to understand the specific viewpoint of the person you’re talking to. And sometimes, it’s good to ask the person what type of evidence they would take into consideration. If the answer is “nothing,” you’re wasting your time. Otherwise, you just learned something valuable about how to approach this person.
Just my two cents.
Thanks for the review – I often buy products because they are reviewed & so far have loved the VF products I’ve got (not many as postage to Australia is a bit steep). I’ll have a look into purchasing these as I have my voucher from the survey too!
Blessings
Renata:)
Interesting post. I do object to the term “unbelievers.” What’s wrong with using the word atheists? Couching it in automatically negative terms – though I know you disagree with them – seems mean-spirited. I’m all for intelligent debate. But no matter how strongly we feel that our side is right, we should be respectful of ways in which people describe themselves. I don’t hear many people call themselves “unbelievers.”
Kitty,
I understand your point, but I used the term unbelievers to refer to anyone who is not Christian. “Atheist” is far more limited in its scope and would not be a suitable substitute. Maybe I should have simply said non-Christians.
I was very interested in the comments this time. I’m intrigued by the number of people who, like myself, enjoy Kim’s blog, but do not necessarily share her beliefs. For the record, I, too, would prefer the term “non-Christians” – after all, we all believe in SOMETHING.
Hilary, I agree and I love the fact that our readers are such a varied bunch.
I think you made an excellent point when you said we all believe something. Atheists and evolutionists would like us to believe that faith and facts are at odds, and that they choose neutral facts while we cling to blind faith.
The truth is, we all interpret facts through the framework of our worldview and its accompanying presuppositions. We are religious creatures, made to worship. The question is what/who we will worship: ourselves and our intellect, or the God who made us.
I just noticed the evolution comment. I don’t know why I didn’t pick up on it before.
Anyway, one of my favorite t-shirts I ever saw was in high school. This guy was wearing a shirt that on the front said, “I believe in the big bang theory” and on the back it said, “God said and BANG it was!” Simplistic, but funny.
I also really enjoyed Ben Stein’s recent independent documentary “No Intelligence Allowed” about evolution and intelligent design.
As for me, I believe in evolution of a species (which is a long, slow process). And I believe that God created the world in 6 units of time called days — whether the “days” were 1000 years or 10,000,000 years, I have no idea.
In those few moments, when I have time and inclination to ponder the vastness and magnificence not only of our world but the universe as well, I’m overwhelmed both with the measure of my own insignificance as well as the might and power of God. Heady stuff.
Fit – You ARE aware that Ben Stein did a fair bit of Bearing False Witness in that movie, right? I’m pretty sure The Old Testament had something to say about that.
How am I supposed to distinguish between the Ultimate Authority of The Bible, the Ultimate Authority of The Koran, the Ultimate Authority of The Book of the SubGenius, the Ultimate Authority of Dianetics, or the Ultimate Authority of The Necronomicon? From a disinterested observer’s point of view, they all have some variety of “The is The Truth because it SAYS it’s the Truth”, which means they can’t be proved by themselves any more than you can prove the existence of Orcs by citing The Lord of the Rings.
Consumer,
I hope you’re not basing your accusations against Ben Stein on site like this. If you read beyond the headlines, the article is pretty weak and mostly comes down to a difference in perspective.
To answer your other question, I didn’t ask you to distinguish between ultimate authorities. I asked the reader what his/her ultimate authority is. We all have one, and so do you. What’s yours?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bible+contradictions
Consumer,
Anyone who knows their Bible can answer 99% of the accusations on those sites with ease. They arise from failure to understand the language of the Bible, lack of familiarity with the context, ignorance of Hebrew culture and poetry, ancient story-telling style (not strictly chronological like the modern style) etc. In short, *apparent* conflicts in the Bible are almost always easily resolved by – surprise! – studying the Bible. The other 1%? Those are harder. Study more.
Hi Kim, thanks for responding. We don’t need to debate the subject – we disagree, but hopefully we can cheerfully agree to disagree, because I enoy your blog even though I don’t agree with everything your family does/believes. So keep it up and I’ll keep reading.
My “Ultimate Authority”?
Probably the universe itself. No amount of fast-talking can get anything past it, after all.
And it’s not a bad one. It’s utterly merciless, but it doesn’t ask me to give up ham or medication or sex or scientific theories.
—-
What, Ben Stein’s lying to his interviewees is OK now? Good to know. I guess that whole “No False Witness” thing has a few hidden clauses us Uninitiated don’t get access to.
You do realize I can map this statement 1-for-1 to any of the Ultimate Authorities I mentioned?
(Except the Book of the SubGenius. All the contradictions in there are deliberate, and true.)
I love Dr. Bahnsen’s cds and have listened to them all over and over.
We like his Great Debate cds a lot, too.
I had to laugh when you said that taking notes while driving is a bad idea. I once saw a comic that said “Honk if you love Jesus, text while driving if you want to meet him.”
Consumer, I think you are reading the version of the Bible that has the books of First and Second Opinions? That’s not the inspired word of God. Only translations that are true to the original manuscripts are the inspired.